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As promised, article on potential squads and systems.

Discussion in 'Liverpool' started by moreinjuredthanowen, Jul 4, 2011.

  1. moreinjuredthanowen

    moreinjuredthanowen Mr Brightside

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    So last time out my sense of realism didn't go down too well. I promised then I'd post an article setting out my thoughts on what i might hope to see next season.

    i'll divide this into three areas; system, emphasis and playing staff. Remember it is just my opinion.

    1. system.

    As a long time fan and follower of football in general i have to say that 4-4-2 is a dead duck at the moment. 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 or whatever you say the concept of two man central midfields is simply not tenable in todays game.

    Why?

    simply put the mileage required over 90minutes to keep up with an opponent out manning you in midfield runs the legs out of your own midfield over the course of the season. Other sides in the majority play 4-5-1, or 4-3-3 and its rare to find ourselves playing two v two in the midfield anymore.

    In fact if you really analyse it the majority of liverpool's best results come when they outman another side in midfield both in terms of work rate and sheer manpower, conversely every time mr lucas gets slated by the reactionary crowd its when he's been placed in a midfield thats been simply outgunned and he's ahving to go do the legwork just to cover.

    Kenny is also famous for adapting to the opposition to exploit ther weaknesses so for me 4-3-3 is the best way to go for liverpool for next year. This system I think gives us the best chance to bast use what we have right now, the most flexible but also ties into the next point i want to make.

    2. Emphasis.

    Yes 4-3-3 and how we will play. I think the days of negativity are gone, thats not to say we'll sweep all before us nor does it mean we are aboutt o try to be blackpool and not defend either.

    No I mean I think Kenny will play an attractive attacking style of football that is designed to keep the ball, hunt for it when we don't have it, but most important emphasise putting others under pressure rather than just soaking it up all the time.

    I think we will defend as a team but also attack as a team and not rely on one or two guys to go do it.

    3. The players.

    Do we have the players to play this attacking game? surely not?

    Well actually i think we do. Let me write one team down on paper here and now to show we do today.

    Reina
    Johnson Carra Agger Aurelio
    Gerrard Lucas Meireles
    Kuyt Carroll Suarez

    And so there you have it in a nutshell, if that doesn't carry all the hopes and worries of our fans i don't know what does.

    There's a pletora of kids to names as bench warmers too but little depth to go with it, but I don't play the name game any more, who know who we will sign next, indeed who knows who will be SOLD next as well.

    What i can say for certain is we've gaps that need to be filled in order to compete over 38 games.

    Left full is obvious.

    My centre half selection is disasterous in terms of pace and injury worres, skertl on the ball as left side CB is a nightmare and can blow a passing game on his own.

    Can lucas carry DCM on his own? poulsen and spearing are his only aid as cover.

    Then gerrards fitness must be a worry, but with aquilani and henderson about as well as adam i think that even if meireles goes and gerrard does his groin again.. well we should be ok.

    Its up top the most worry has to be, I don't see one reliable player to cover any of the front three.. my views on n'gog are well known, cole's legs seem gone, maxi wants to go, javanovic is a disaster..

    However i just think maybe someone may suprise, people talk of bale moving to a top club, yet he's a left full playing left midfield in a 4-4-2, n'zogbia is the same. Do we need to buy downing or can someone come from out of the blue and suprise us all with pace and trickery? I hope so.

    ................................................................

    So in summation, the potential for improvement is there already but I don't see anything like a challenging team next year. I hope for more consistency as kenny gets more options to use and that consistency is all about entertaining football in a system that is flexible enough to adapt to the opponent.

    2-3 more singings are hoped for but who and how much money is available is an unknown right now as is who will go.
     
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  2. luvgonzo

    luvgonzo Pisshead

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    I'm sure we won't stick to 1 formation next season. We need a LB as you say and I strongly beleive we need a CB.
    A LW is the other essential signing, other than that I say use the kids.
     
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  3. Foredeckdave

    Foredeckdave Music Thread Manager

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    One of the strengths of great Liverpool sides is that they never stuck to a rigid pattern when going forward. Within the capabilities of the players they tried to make themselves inter-changable. The type of pass and move football that Kenny gloried in demanded that players occupied space to support, recieve and play the ball. It's all about options.

    However, in defence the total objective has always been to keep solid. Defence begins when we lose the ball in the opponents area - call it playing a high line if you wish. I believe that lucas is vital to this and that he is rapidly growing in his role as the fulcrum around which the defence swings. Apart from the goalkeeper his is the only real specialist role in the team.

    I really don't want us to be classified by 4-3-3 or whatever. let the opposition plan for a system that we are not playing. I do want us to play attractive attacking foorball but of the Liverpool style and not the Arsenal outcome. I don't think the descriptor lies in numbers but in a sense of "we are going to give you more trouble than you can cope with".
     
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  4. Milnermino Lamborini

    Milnermino Lamborini Well-Known Member

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    I will highlight the 2-5 demolition of Fulham. The idea is most of our team members are versatile and this allows for interchanging of positions at will. The beauty is it is hard marking out a system rather than basing the game on individuals. That is why even though we want to buy wingers, it has to be those that can play on both flanks.

    If you observe Barca, the formation is the same but off the ball movement and interchanging of positions makes them very dangerous. My view is Carroll needs to adjust his game towards the Liverpool squad.We should not be trying to buy wingers to enure maximum value for Carroll.

    I believe a Variation of 4-5-1 into 4-3-3 or even 4-2-3-1 will get the best out of our squad without affecting performance.
     
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  5. Ze

    Ze Well-Known Member

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    Firstly; 4-4-2 does work in today's game, and Man United is case in point. This year they've employed a quite rigid 4-4-2 with the pairing of Rooney and Hernandez up front, Valencia and Nani on the wings etc... and you could argue that despite their midfield problems they've coped well with a 2 man central midfield pairing.

    The way we're playing is simply pass and move. I see it as a mixture between the styles of the past and current great sides. Total football and Tiki-Taka.

    Imagine each player has a quarter of the pitch to cover, and when the opposition attack, they track back to the other quarter in line with their own. That's how the pass and move style works.

    Because I'm very bored at the moment, an example of what I'm talking about:

    please log in to view this image


    The lines represent the areas in which the particular player will stay. Blue = LM. Red = Kuyt. Pink = CM.
    The CM will stick down the middle, generally staying away from the wings. If they were to venture to the wings, the options for the wingers/wide players to pass to would be limited meaning the ball was given away. The wingers/Wide players have the entire side, but again will not venture too far into the middle because that would limit options.

    This basically means formations are useless. Each player will have an area they are advised to stick to, obviously they will venture out of it occasionally but it's a guideline to where they will work. For the instance of Kuyt on the right wing - you could play a 4-3-3, a 4-4-2, a 4-2-3-1 etc.. and he'd fit into all of them because he sticks down the right. Using this type of technique you maximise the options for the player to pass to, allowing pass and move to work effectively.

    The problem comes when the opposition also use this technique but with better players. Barcelona use a similar type of spacing, but they widen the areas a bit. Therefore utilizing this tactic against them would be useless because they will always have more space than you do.
     
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  6. KingPepeReina.

    KingPepeReina. Active Member

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    I completely agree that the 4-4-2 is a dead duck,However,so are all the formations.They all have flaws.
    A clever manager will set up his formation to find chinks in the opposition teams armour.
    An example,at Anfield last season,Kenny effectively played a 4-2-4 against Man United going forward,it became a 4-5-1 when defending.Lucas and Gerrard squeezed together and although they looked like they weren't doing anything as neither moved,they strangled Carrick and Scholes.This allowed Suarez,Mereiles,Kuyt and Maxi to push on and domimate Man Uniteds back-line.
    All four interchanged,none of them stayed in their starting positions.This is impossible for defenders to pick up,especially when you've got someone like Luis Suarez that will pick up all four positions in the same game. Possibly two at at the same time,he starts wide and then gets himself into a central area.Some call it down to his overall trickery.I disagree with that.Its more to do with the fact that he's got many dimensions to his overall play,and he's as energetic and hard-working as he is skillful.
    The key to a system to make it effective is obviously personel.I believe Liverpools current personel are capable of doing extremely well at home.However away is the problem,when a different tactic is needed.Its up to the home team,to dictate play and attempt to dominate position.I felt at times,Liverpool were being over-run in midfield.They were over-running teams at home.Its in fact the reverse.
    In away games,I still feel Liverpool need 2 players,an outlet that can ease the pressure on the central midfield when it gets congested,that will put pressure on the opposition full-backs.This will work better under Kenny than it did under Rafa,as Kenny instructs as many players to get into the 18 yard box as possible.Rafa sometimes allowed a maximum of say 3.
    Also for this to work,I still feel for away games especially Liverpool need a tempo changer.Someone that will slow things down.Liverpool don't need such a player for home games as they need to play quick one-two touch passing and get into the opposition 18 yard box as quickly as possible.
    Having an outlet will also benefit Andy Carroll,not necessarily for crossing but to pull holes in the opposition back-line to create the space for him to use his somewhat lethal left foot.If he can be complimented correctly,he's unplayable.He's a big nuisance,and can cause as much havoc as Didier Drobga.
    So if Liverpool were to make just 3 more signings,I believe that they must be a left back,a left winger and a deep-lying playmaker.
     
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  7. moreinjuredthanowen

    moreinjuredthanowen Mr Brightside

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    ze liverbird, were utd really a 4-4-2.. i seem to recall much of the season that i say a 3 man central midfield from them.
    i can't agree formations are uselss as you suggest. look a 4-3-3 means what precisely?

    well they are starting positions. If we look to say oh chelsea when they won the double i think cole played virtually left wing most of the time.... contrast to rafa's 4-2-3-1 where mascherano and alosnos while called defensive players certainly contributed a lot more than that. so yes players will stick to one kind of area and yes kuyt is an example of a guy who will play in many roles down that right hand side.

    but back to utd... giggs didn't play left wing much i don't think, more central midfield sort of role.....

    for me formation = basis for defense, when playing a 4-4-2 I feel we were too guilty of seeing players hang round further up the pitch rather than funnelling back, if you get 2 solid banks of 4 4-4-2 is great but it isolates the front two then. 4-3-3 allows you to exploit the middle of the ptich more, you can only use one wing at a time after all. (leave the 40 yard hollywood play switching out of it)

    ergo, ball onthe left one midfielder funnels across to help the left full and the other two can hodl the middle, or of you are lucky you get a squarez or kuyt back helping also (see valencia)

    a 4-3-3 also means a "nani" can be carried without leving a dangerous gap.

    I totally take the point about us not sitcking one way all year, i made this same point in saying kennyis famous for expolioting opponenets systems so i expect to see us change.

    I think 4-4-2 is a lame duck as finding a pair of really good foardards these days is very hard but finding these jhonny come lately second stricker types who want to swan about like VDV for example... easy... lol. i think a front 3 of carroll suarez and kuyt can work very well but even more than that gerrard not playing in a midfield duo means heis lack of discipline can be covered as he's developed this triat under rafa to the clubs benefit of course.

    we should be thinking of gerrard's legs over 38 games, 4-3-3 can go do that for us too.

    I feel the outlets are carroll and suarez. kuyt is in my mind as he is a smart footballer who will work off both men and find space, his lack of pace and touch is made up for by the others delivering.

    finally king pepe has made an important statement, "tempo changer" I agree we don't have that nor do we have the option off the bench.

    all in all if it was 3 more singings (and i'd take that right now) left full, CB and striker for me. we just may get away with skertl and carra once more but agger, kyrgiakos? I think we'll be in big trouble if we ignore this much longer. (kelly may be an answer but not the whole answer)
     
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  8. KingPepeReina.

    KingPepeReina. Active Member

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    I still feel additions are needed to improve our away form moreso than our home form.
    Lets look at it.In Kenny's 9 away games as manager,Liverpool won 7 drew 1 and lost 1(The last one).Picking up 22 points from a possible 27.
    In Kenny's 9 away games,Liverpool won 3,drew 2 and lost 4.picking up 11 points from a possible 27.Okay this included a win a SB which is one of the most difficult places to go to,but Liverpool were under no pressure as the spot-light was on our former number 9 who had just joined Chelsea for £50 million.
     
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  9. Salah's-left-foot

    Salah's-left-foot Well-Known Member

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    I'm not going to go into too much detail because I reckon it'll change come the end of the transfer window due to new signings and such.

    4-4-2 isn't dead and would actually be good for Liverpool as we have Jordan Henderson who players on the right who can drift towards the midfield aswell as playing near the touchline.

    However, 4-3-3 is a good formation that could suit the current players at our disposal and a formation which can provide some exciting entertainment and total football (Something King Kenny promotes).

    Another thought is as Liverpool are thought to be after a left-back and as Kelly seems to have taken over the right-back position, maybe give Glen Johnson a chance on the wing? Suarez - Carroll - Johnson would be good because the wings would have pace, decent crossing ability along with the ability to take on a defender and even cut inside with a shot.

    Although, I reckon we might go for a 4-2-3-1 though as Suarez can play on the left and Lucas does well in the defensive side of midfield and with a strong partner can create concrete defensive cover.
     
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  10. moreinjuredthanowen

    moreinjuredthanowen Mr Brightside

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    effort is a big impact on form too. at home i felt the crowd, kenny and players all fed off each other and it reinvigorated our home form somewhat. If we can continue that we should build a decent plaftorm to get to 5th/6th.

    away form needs something else entirely, something to raise the game and whether thats bottle or skill i am not sure.

    suarez will make the difference away from home, carroll can hold the ball up very well if its not just aimless lumping at his general direction. But away from starts at the back with solidity, then requires a player or two who will as you say keep it calm and play consistent, passing football that doesn't change whether its chelsea or charlton etc. i don't know who that is.... but for sure its not going to be a young player nor is it going to be anyone bar gerrard of the senior staff.
     
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  11. BringBackfootie

    BringBackfootie New Member

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    A formation for me is only a starting point. Team shape is dynamic depending on if you have the ball or not and how play is progressing beit attack or defence and also on the opposition and what dangers they can possibly pose. Have seen 4 4 2 turn into 4 6 0 or 3 3 4 3 2 5 as play progresses. After a goal, or goal kick free kick corner do the team take up a predetermined formation that may be altered slightly here and there depending on the circumstances.

    Great teams with great players are not so bogged down by formation other than a starting point, like the Dutch national side where at times they operated like a volleyball team rotating around positions as play progressed keeping a dynamic shape depending on the positioning of opponents, ball retention makes it all the much easier to play as you like, they operate with a certain amount of freedom of action from the coach. Making the right decision based on the current situation. Lately there have been examples of the exact opposite, players afraid to do anythng, take any risk without orders from the boss.

    This needs to be trained into players from a young age. Decision making is football. When we came second, bad decisions by players cost us the points in those draws, at some point they must take ownership and they didn't regardless of Rafa's supposedly rigid formations they could have crafted something between themselves on the turf, yet Rafa still gets the blame.
     
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  12. KingPepeReina.

    KingPepeReina. Active Member

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    4-2-5-1.
    Do you not realise that Man United are the only ones that are allowed to have 12 players.<laugh>
     
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  13. BringBackfootie

    BringBackfootie New Member

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    :)
     
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  14. Salah's-left-foot

    Salah's-left-foot Well-Known Member

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    <laugh>

    Edited!
     
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  15. BringBackfootie

    BringBackfootie New Member

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    Barcalona are often, because their ball retention is so good and gives confidence to players to move out of rigid positioning, in a 2 3 2 3 when going forward.


    the more you can keep retain the ball the more freedom of movement you have. A simple truth.
     
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  16. moreinjuredthanowen

    moreinjuredthanowen Mr Brightside

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    i happen to agree yet feel when we did finsih second it was rather a few games where alds didn't try very hard or worse were incompetant... see boro away with babel up top.

    players, emphasis and formation for me as all part of the big picture, i think kenny can control two of those but will have to wait at least another couple of transfer windows before the players side of the equation allows us to compete....
     
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  17. BringBackfootie

    BringBackfootie New Member

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    Example of holding a formation compared to freedom of action to create, very stark contrast here that makes my point nicely imo, also the barca players are seriously outnumbered here but because the united players maintain a solid shape and not use their own intuition and anticipate, not that it takes a lot, they know where the ball is going and look at the space left wide open, this happens a lot against a team that can act freely in groups of three or 4 players operating outside of formation but rather what they work on themselves in training, as long as they can keep the ball.

    1 team is in a formation, the other isnt
    please log in to view this image




    Because of this Xavi completed more passes than Rooney Park Carrick and Giggs combined!on his own.
     
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  18. KingPepeReina.

    KingPepeReina. Active Member

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    I completely agree.
    Sometimes success comes down to making use of space as well as creating your own.The ties against Braga proved that,In the second leg at home,Liverpool had no option but to hit Andy Carroll early.This played into Braga's hands as they were able to counteract it.Now if we had an outlet in the wide areas,it would have decongested the mdfield and put pressure on their full-backs and therefore we wouldn't have had to hit Andy Carroll early.
    Now Newcastle got good returns from Andy Carroll from Kevin Nolan and Joey Barton hitting him with crosses not long centrally,but from diagonal balls.Raul Mereiles proved by hitting Andy Carroll with the right ball,he can do damage when he gets in-between centre backs.There must be an understanding there.

    He did it to perfection when he got inbetween Lescott and Kompany,and scored following Mereiles' cross.
     
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  19. moreinjuredthanowen

    moreinjuredthanowen Mr Brightside

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    I think this is not against my point either.... formation = defensive set up. attacking requires creative flair and ability and trust to do it.

    then when you lose it like xavi or iniesta, messi, villa etc you work back quickly to get it back.... unlike say nani, ronaldo, vdv, or a pletora of other lazy guys who only want the easy part of the game.

    Barca are champs 3 times in 5 years cos the work harder than the rest as well as have the skills.

    one thing kingpepe i must say........................... hitting andy carroll early. lets call a spade a spade. when your CBs are carra "no risk" and skertl "no left foot but o nthe left" then every time a ball goes back to them you lose 10 yards of territory and pretty soon your back is to the wall, ally that to being outmanned in midfield and oh oh there you go.

    An outlet in mdfield is a good concept but if the team lacks faith in themselves then the first pass is back, and those cbswere only good for one thing. Kenny is wokring on belief too. you must beleive in yourself, move for the passes that may or may not come, work harder than the opposition and make that first pass be a forward one if at all possible. this is what i truely beelive the emphasis kenny will put on our play. If you add that outlet in midfield, dare i say it like paul scholes, then you've got a guy with the faith to get turned.... Aquilani? joe cole, gerrard, meireles. we've got them floating about. put them in the three and i think it could be interesting... add suarez to the mix and i think we can bring the likes of carroll and indeed kuyt into ithigher up the pitch.

    but again we need the package, not just 11 men.

    I think carroll can be class running the channels, holding it up and getting o nthe end of things, but only if we set the team up right. 433 plus an emphasis on the forward rather than negative pass and we'll be half way there. its just down to who we can get in to improve it then.

    6th to 4th is a big big ask, last year i thought arsenal were on the verge of imploding then they were great up to a point. I don't see city, chelsea or utd coming back to us and spurs so the question must be answered in season. 4th-5th-6th? Then its all down to mr henry and his wallet.
     
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  20. Foredeckdave

    Foredeckdave Music Thread Manager

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    I was thinking about that and the Battle of Agincourt came to mind. That day the French got their tactics totally wrong. They played far too narrow and got slaughtered (literally). They did not create space with any light caverlry.

    Did you know the first french nobleman to die that day was the Duke of Anjou? The hoist lifting him on to his horse snapped and he got crushed by the weight of his armour - and that was even before they tried to mount an attack!

    Just thought I'd mention it:emoticon-0126-nerd:
     
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