Lets debate. Holding midfielders/ defensive midfielders have become very much a key part of football. In PL football the holding role has become vital to dominating the midfield, retaining possession and protecting the back four. Dominating the holding midfield area is vital in the PL. Some teams plays 1 holding player, but most play 2. In most games we play 1 holding player, usually Gerrard, who is not a conventional holding players. But as it currently stands, its not working. I don't need to say why its not working, because we've been discussing it for weeks. So should we make a change? I know Gerrard and Lucas as a holding pair doesn't work. We've seen it fail multiple times, and a Gerrard and Henderson pairing limits Henderson to much as he has to stay to static. But we could have some pairing's that may work. Henderson and Can. Energetic, mobile, strong. No Hollywood passes but the defense will be protected. Can muscle and mobility should allow Henderson to run. Or even braver, Can and Coutinho. Can playing like Mascerano whilst Coutinho provides the great passes like Alonso. As for the attack. Sterling behind Balotelli with Sturridge right and Lallana left sounds good to me. Or Henderson behind if we need extra midfield grit. Thoughts? Henderson Can Sturridge Sterling Lallana Balotelli Can Coutinho Henderson Sturridge Balotelli Sterling Can Henderson Sterling-------Coutinho Balotelli Sturridge
Its not a straight forward answer. Some players can play in a two, others can't. So for me it depends on who the one/two is/are going to be.
I say Gerrard cant. I remember Lucas and Aquilani having a good game together years ago, so could with that kind of player. The closest we have is Coutinho. Can, totally could.
My view on this is simple when we have the ball we cannot have two holding midfielder donkeys when they have the ball we need to defend like we have. Someone put a thought out about AC milan back when we playing in 2005/2007 In short is was a good one but i felt it didn't give credit to who the players were Pirlo Seedorf Gattutso Kaka Now nobody can call pirlo a holding midfielder, he is the play maker... and nobody can call clarence seedorf a destructive player, he is one of the finest ball passers in the game. Gattutso is the doneky who ran everywhere So.... what do liverpool need? Well if you disparage henderosn who'd got some attributes by calling him gattutso and have him doing what he does best in legging it round all over the place what we need is a player to play beside him... i do not see that as being lallana. If gerrard is supposedly pirlo then we need another really top player who can fill in the gap. allen is not that but people on here rightly point to busyness and industry... but he's a ball passer and brittle as F... he is better than whats going on now. Coutinho aint that either. So we need a different sory of system and I see a case now for 4-2-3-1 in some form....
now the fornt line. I am sorry but there's a lot of shoe horning going on with your 3 flappy. sturrdige wide? never. he's our main man and we can't be shuffling him wide. neither does coutinho play that well out left or certianly deep... no chance. so for me we need to find our strongest way of playing. I feel sterling's pace is best suited to playing wide and i'd go for gerrard henderson lallana coutinho sterling Sturridge can will have to force his way in as will markovic, allen, balotelli et al. if we want a really attacking set up the try gerrard lallana henderson sterling sturridge balotelli of add allen in for lallana or coutinho in
Of course, you could say Hendo is the Seedorf leaving Lallana to be Gattuso. Hendo's passing is brilliant and Lallana runs just as much as Hendo!
When I mention Sturridge wide I dont mean him as a winger. Whn we played 433 with Sturridge Sturridge was 'wide right' but in reality he was a striker playing in from the right. I should have made this clearer. Lets consider another team. Chelsea. Fabrigas---Matic ------Oscar Matic is a proper DM whilst Fabrigas is a CM who can attack. Fabrigas will often be found up in attack when Chelsea have the ball but he is ready to defend when he needs to aswell. Our alternative is Gerrard as one holding player who drops in between the CB's, creating a kind of back 5, whilst Henderson and Coutinho/Allen press like conventional CM's in a 442. People talking about the DM protecting the back 4. But in our system its often more like Gerrard joining the back 4 instead of protecting. Henderson and Coutinho/Allen are them expected to protect. Fine when we can dominate possession freely but not when we are pressed.
Is the issue not that our current set up asks for the CB's to split and Gerrard to move back between them to allow the FB's to move forward but Gerrard is constantly found in the opposition half at the time we lose the ball and the opposition breaks leaving our CB's isolated either out wide with a gap in the middle or too close together with the space behind our exposed full backs exploited? Gerrard usually arrives into position as the ball is bring crossed or picked out of the net by Mignolet. We can play about with who is beside or in front of him all day but if we continue to tell our full backs to be so advanced with the full knowledge that the guy to make the three at the back can not or will not get into position in time then it'll happen every game. Either he has to be more disciplined or we start getting our FB's making smarter runs with one staying back and making up the three. Again thus needs a stable back four to work. He looked better against Everton in the second half because we sat back as an entire team and he didn't have to have the e scipline normally needed for the role. Still think we'd have more points despite the above if we had a coach who could organise us at set pieces. While I've seen lots I like about the influence of BR over the last three years. He appears to have no clue about defending.......
in short YES. gerrard has a role. it it so get between those cbs. if he does this it releases players. the other point of not is this meas gerrard should be facing the play not facing our goal as well. the problem with is ALL sitting back is there was zero energy and if we see JAGIELKA having a dig that advanced you know we are not scaring them t all.
there's two systems at play though... when we have the ball yes gerrard should be between cbs. when we don't he should not. when we have it full backs should be in effect LM and RM and the others are advancing. when we don't have it we are supposed to have a back 4 play another line or at least 3 with one guy popping up to close down. We press at error points.... for example a player receiving a pass across the back line will just get the forwards shuffling. if a pass is played forward or in the air or hard we are SUPPOSED to jump on it and force the error or turnover. you can follow a run and force the pass right back but we are looking to pounce on someone trying to control it facing their own goal or if the ball is played awkwardly in any way. In 4-2-2-1-2 there are 3 natural pressing players sterling is one. he does VERY VERY deep at times. This needs to be educated into him. versatility, going everywhere great but being so deep is taking you out of both our defensive and offensive game. you are not fat nor named wayne. get the f back up there. Henderson at his best pops out of the line and harrys then moves back quickly. If he's minding gerrard he can't do that. Allen the same. When all 3 play one can pop up. in my view this is whey allen looks busy and is desired by many. coutinho did this in a couple big games then vanished is a couple smaller ones last year. Its got to be consistent. gerrard discipline is oe aspect. CM energy is another... sterling staying higher is yet another.
Two holding midfielders may help if we have two fit! Is Can injured? Lucas isn't good enough. Gerrard isn't good enough. Allen/Henderson - sure they can play there but it isn't their strongest positions. Do we have enough holding midfielders to play one there?
Typical in a 2 holding player system you have two types: A solid, compative DM who does the dirty work, allowing others freedom: Mascerano, Matic, Tiote. A creative pass master deep play maker: Alonso, Sahin, Banega. But when top teams play weaker teams you quite often see a box to box man deep who can attack from that position, avoiding being to defensive: Fabrigas, Toure. It depends on the opponant. - Another problem we are having is Gerrard being man marked in that role. Gerrard creates from the back but if he is marked tight enough he cant. If we had 2 Gerrard's (2 holding players) it would be harder to man mark.
Very rarely do teams really play with 2 DMs. On paper, they may put it that way, but almost always one of them stays back and the other ventures forward. Against Villa, we really played with 2 DMs. Against Everton, Henderson was markedly ahead of Gerrard overall.
This is what we don't really have! Lucas kind of- but he hasn't been good for a couple of years now. Not sure if that's really Can's mould either.
Just feel a great disservice was done to Henderson RE the passing. His passing is f**ing quality and he's been spraying 40/50 yard passes to the flanks just like Gerrard does for the last 6 months too. He rarely does it because typically Gerrard is in the spot, but he can and has done it. Anyway, we're basically fitting our team around Gerrard right now. If we had Suarez to make a really fluid forward three, then Gerrard behind Can and Henderson would be ideal. Gerrard sitting deep and passing and Can and Hendo as the all action box to box midfielders who have a nice balance of strength and flair passing but both press. Without Suarez, we have Balotelli who is pretty immobile when we have the ball meaning one of our midfielders needs to push up behind the forward 3 and exploit the pockets of space to create - Coutinho would be ideal there but Lallana could equally do it. Problem is that after Gerrard has his spot, it leaves one spot left (usually Henderson) who then has to run box to box on his own, press on his own, help defend or cover the FB spots on his own and generally do everything that Stevie can't. Now Henderson is great and imo will go on to be a fantastic all round midfielder for this club, but this isn't sustainable and, to be perfectly honest, doesn't always work because good teams take advantage of it. If Gerrard was dropped for Can or even Allen, it would work far better. Our current injury list in midfield doesn't help. Some combinations to me just don't work at this club. Balotelli as a lone striker in almost a 4-5-1 never will work. Gerrard and Lucas won't work. Gerrard and any other player in a holding midfield 2 won't work. BR's got either a tricky balancing act to get both Balotelli in the team, Gerrard in his 'quarterback' spot whilst keeping the midfield fluid, or he's got some tough calls to make RE who plays and who's on the bench. If it were down to me, assuming all players were fit, I'd go back to the diamond which worked so well for us. (this is also assuming that Balotelli is a nailed on starter as I suspect he will be, even though I'd be tempted to have Sterling up next to Sturridge and Coutinho/Lallana behind) Gerrard Can/Allen Henderson Sterling Sturridge Balotelli
I'd still like to see Can behind Hendo and Allen with Sterling ahead of them. Just think those 3 have a lot more mobility than Gerrard & Lucas and the way we play in midfield we need quick passing and movement. I know Allen gets mocked a lot, but theres no doubt his ability to move the ball on and find space would have come in very handy in the last couple of games.
I agree, but I think we all know that both Gerrard and Balotelli will play whenever fit. The question is what happens around them. I also think whilst Allen IS very limited as a player, he's one of those who fits what we want from our midfield. We can get better than him and I hope we do in the summer, but for now he has to play next to Henderson (or at least rotate with Can) because of what he does.
