I think the time is rapidly approaching where us fans need to take a look with objectivity and see where our club is at. let me set out a few short points with which to establish why a does of reality is required. 1. Jordan henderson early in the summer. Thats great, well done to the club and all that. its just about preseason right now and no other players have arrived or to be frank, despite press talk, look like arriving. why? Lets not get carried way with utd's spending, thats good for them but the other clubs have not been too active either, prime exmaple being city. but this doesn't answer the question why? some sections of the media would have us believe our wage bill is too high and in fact we need to move on the ultra expensive utter flops we have such as poulsen, jovanovic, cole et al. A plausible point to be sure. Others seem to state the case that in fact we've blown our budget already and now need to sell to buy. Is the plausible at all? We simply don't know. torres+bable= carroll+ suarez. a simple equation there, kyrgiakos getting another deal this summer (contractually obliged?) the debate (or accusation) seems to have moved from we've no money to we've spent all we had already. 2. leaving aside the transfer activity we need to look at the gaping holes in our squad. Left back, the perennial debate about wingers and the fact n'gog is STILL our only back up to carroll unless we move kuyt up top. I think the point has to be this side finished 6th, has it got what it takes in any way or shape to take 4th given the reputed player of the year and new fans idols are both away for copa america and won't be back for the season openers, will miss preseason and so forth. another year older at the back for Carra, agger no closer to reliable fitness, the point must be the negatives at this point outweigh the positives and throwing henderosn into the mix doesn't seem to pull any gaps either, not unless we expect gerrard not to be fit, merieles to go etc. 3. The dose of reality needs to be that we simply are not at the races yet and any talk of trophies must be set i nthe context that unless something really radical happens between now and the end of august 5th is the best possible result we can realistically hope for. City, cheslea and utd are THE clubs right now, but yes arsenal could implode if fabregas and nasri, and indeed clichy, go this summer... but if we think that our side is good enough to complete yet.. thats not reality. 4. The talk about our kids seems to sometimes equate them to barcelona, but barca only have 3-4 guys in there from one youth set up, pique returned to it, the pedros and busquets of this world are from a second wave of youths. they've done well but we have to go back to 95 for the last team like this in Ajax who won a CL then and of course the utd team of 4-5 guys who came in at once. every youth we have coming in is a defender for one, there's not one you'd equate to fabregas, xavi or iniesta bar perhaps suso.. in other words while the blossoming youth set up is good in the next two years were are not going to see 5 guys take up the backbone of the side to fill the gaps i mentioned. So these three points are not all gloom and doom just being realistic, we've a lot of work to do to transform the club but it is less than a year since the high court was required to prevent an epic swindle from bankrupting us, we just can't get carried away by where we are beacuse the reality is we've had a bounce from kenny's return but that bounce bought us nothing bar a million or two in league prize money. (12th to 6th) perhaps one or two kids will establish themselves like kelly needs to continue to do but that won't make the difference, the wage bill point is a crucial one, the dead wood, championship level players bought by both rafa and roy were scandals day one they arrived and they are to be frank going to be a mill stone round the clubs neck for the next 2-3 years. I just hope we can get in 2-3 more players of real quality this summer to imprve the club.
Whilst I agree that it is always important to balance our hopes and expectations with a good dose of reality, I think that you may be jumping the gun a little. The summer window has only just opened in reality. Targets, or potential targets, have been, on holiday, competing in the U21's, Copa America, etc. We can identify areas that need improving and therefore both KK and DC can see it as well (so can our opponents). The club will be working to fix the problems. I strongly doubt that money will be an issue for the right player (that is in-line with FSG philosophy in the US) so some form of 'kitty' is, for us, 'old hat' thinking. However, negotiations do fail, some targets may not prove to be available, etc. etc.. So we will have to see what happens over the course of the summer. I know we would all like to see the imports signed tomorrow but that is not likely happen. So, "courage mon brave"
I agree with some of the points you have made. Under Kenny, we have had some excellent results and the team seems to have bonded together. I think we all understand that the team lacks depth in certain positions. Left-back and wingers are postions which we know need filling. Re-building the club isn't going to be done in one transfer window. It will take longer than that to clear out the deadwood and start buying the world class players which will help us challenge at the top of the Premier League. I think if we buy some of the players we have been linked with (Mata, Clichy, Adam etc.) we could challenge for the top 4.
FordeckDave. Good points.Its not until July before any activity gets done.So I'm not the slightest bit worried. Secondly regarding Man United,they claim we over-paid on unproven players.Guess what...so they did they.De Gea has never played in the Premiership,and last season played in a team that conceded 58 goals.Thats 10 more than Athleticos average and more than Aston Villa.United fans claim they have better defenders,they do when Vidic is playing,but when Vidic is injured or more likely suspended and they have to pair Glassback and Evans,they could be in trouble. Phil Jones,A rookie that played for a relegation threatened team.Yes he has potential.So does Jordan Henderson.So my questiion is why were Liverpool getting flak for signing someone with potential when Man United did the same twice.Its ''good business'' by Man United,its wasting money by Liverpool. Ashley Young is a good player and I would have welcomed him at Liverpool,but do United actually need him?Is he better than Valencia?Has Fergie pulled the same stunt he pulled with Carrick.He already had Hargreaves and signed Carrick too,and both did exactly the same thing.This is called spite. Fergie may have cost himself the chance to sign that much needed central midfielder.I'm convinced he needs not one but two,as Hargreaves and Scholes have both gone.And Anderson and Gibson are rubbish.Giggs can only tackle Welsh birds with big tits and Carrick can't tackle to save his life. There is spending and spending wisely.So be patient.If Kenny and DC have to go into the overseas market as of from tomorrow,they will.Its been reported that Axl Witzel of Standard Liege,a hard-man is available and could be a decent alternative to Charlie Adam if Blackpool continue being unrealistic,Mouassa Sissoko is another and there is as Mahamadou Diarra who is surplus to requirements at Real Madrid.He could be picked up for peanuts,Real paid as much for him as Chelsea did for Essien. So be patient.
So my questiion is why were Liverpool getting flak for signing someone with potential when Man United did the same twice.Its ''good business'' by Man United,its wasting money by Liverpool. Because adding potentially good young Players to an already established, currently successful, strong and stable Team/Squad is a sound strategy. Whereas, adding potentially good young Players to a currently unsuccessful, weaker and less stable Team/Squad is a gamble at best, and based on hope rather than expectation. And Hope ain't a Strategy....
Its not the way it is,and Barcelona proved it too.Before you say only Barcelona gave Man United a thumping of the highest order.Liverpool gave United the same beating Barcelona did.They and their fans haven't realised it yet.I made this point before.Man United beat Liverpool twice...Liverpool gave Man United a beating.
So you are basing it on One-Off Games. Won the Premier League at a canter and were the 2nd best Team in the Champions League. Tweeks are required, one or two serious acquisitions and some prospecting, not major surgery. Liverpool's needs are much more fundamental, tweeks and prospecting won't close the gap on anyone.
So having 2nd best form in the league behind Chelsea since Kenny took over makes us stronger than Utd. Perhaps if these potentials had been signinge into the Utd squad that was, that would the strong and successful (league anyway but a European embarrassment) but they're coming into a side that's melting and about to be rebuilt so Fergie can retire not only as a man who speculated to accumulate but also as an artiste. Because the Barca plaudits have really stuck in his craw. In case you missed it, Pep was gushing about Liverpool's academy. So, reality: Kerry Katona is back with Max Clifford. Why? What does this mean for Peter Andre's friendship with Kerry, as he's still with Claire? Why? Or rather, what? What is the reality? How long will this reality last? And what will the reality be in August? We simply don't know. That, my friends, is the reality. All else is just the 3AM Girls.
Second best team in the Champions League?Biggest joke of the week goes to Schofield. You had a route to the final that most clubs would love to hand pick.Man United beat an incredibly poor Marseille side that haven't done anything of note since 2003.Liverpool destroyed them in France a few years back with a convincing 4-0 victory.Chelsea who were more dysfunctional than usual.And a Schalke side that Everton would have pulverised.Imagine if Man United had got the draws that Arsenal and Spurs got in the earlier rounds,they would never have got to the final.I'm still convinced Real Madrid would have given Man United the same beating they gave Spurs.If they had met in the earlier rounds.Man United didn't learn from the beating Liverpool gave them and did exactly the same thing against Barcelona and are 2011s European embarrassment.It was caused because Ferguson is a tactical dunce and comparable to Harry Redknapp in that respect.,
Why can't some of our fans take critisicm positively. I rememeber when we finished 2nd and we were trying to justify how we woud win the league the following season. Reality is as much as Manutd have a team that is not a patch on their previous teams,they still managd to win the league. Reality is by virtue of winning the league any addition will be looked at as a plus. When we want to break back into top 4 positions and are seen spending 16M on Henderson the questions will arise.
And Blackpool beat Liverpool twice and got relegated. Which means Liverpool are worse than Blackpoool, by your ridiculous childlike view on things. In other words, your opinion is worth ****, just like every single post you ever make on here. Can I also just say, whilst I'm at it, you are meant to place a gap between your full stop and the beginning of your next sentence you irritating little ****.
I'd not bother with a slagging match over utd. the fact is their busines bar say mordic is all done now. they are in a strong position to have a good preseason and hit the gorund running. I have contrasted how city, chelsea and arsenal just to name 3 have not exactly done loads of business. My point to RETURN to that, not what others are doing is that somehow on the back of press speculation our fans seem to think we can take 4th, no problem. I don't see it yet. July and august is a ong time and i expect fully another 2-3 players in but a dose of reality is needed. Henderson doesn't buy is much, another midfielder in the same mould as gerrard, meireles and even shelvey. it coesn't plug a gap does it? so a good yuong player in, thats great but guys REALITY. last august things looked very dodgy, we all knew the squad wasn't up to the demands put on it and we'd need a lot fo luck with injuires. in fact it was even worse than that as roy proceeded to make a pigs ear of it. Sure kenny has sorted out things early on but over 38 games? the same players? 4th? look i think we've the makings of a decent first 11 no question but lets face it, no subs of note, no options to change things and no ability to cope with injuries. Lets face reality now and not set unrealistic expectations. This season a league cup and 5th would be be great ( for example) of course if dream land occured and FSV supported buying mata, downing, adam or whomever and radically changed things, thus absorbing a vast wage bill for 3/4 years... I'd be delighted.
RR Thank you for taking time from your job editing the Penguin Literary Classics to offer your esteemed critique of our work here.
The facts are we have more or less the same team as last year, it wasn't good enough. We are losing players to the copa america, we still have massive weaknesses on our left side. Signing players on deadline day who havn't settled into the team won't help us when potentially, we could have a great start to the season given the fixtures we have. I want to see us get our business doen early like United have done. Although they still have a gaping hole in their midfield to fill!
As the basis for your argument is flawed then the rest is erroneous. I'm not going to give chapter and verse on the shortcomings of United but they are very far from being "already established, currently successful, strong and stable Team/Squad". Liverpool have already said that they are seeking to do 2 things in the summer transfer market - (1) strengthen the squad and (2) invest in young talent. Neither of these 2 strategies are mutually exclusive. Contrary to your assertion that IS a strategy and identifies your lack of understanding of strategic thought and planning.
I think the time is rapidly approaching where us fans need to take a look with objectivity and see where our club is at. let me set out a few short points with which to establish why a does of reality is required. 1. Jordan henderson early in the summer. Thats great, well done to the club and all that. its just about preseason right now and no other players have arrived or to be frank, despite press talk, look like arriving. why? Our buying started in Jan, developement started in Jan, we got Carroll Suarez and Henderson, considering our situation earlier this season, to get Suarez and Carroll for a misfiring moaning Nando was fantastic, infinitly better off as he was anonymous on the pitch in his last months apart from one chelsea display. Lets not get carried way with utd's spending, thats good for them but the other clubs have not been too active either, prime exmaple being city. but this doesn't answer the question why? Prem's lost its pulling power too in part I'd say. Even De Gea reckons he's gonna be first choice at United meaning CL footy ect, he wouldn't have gone if VDS had 4 5 years left in him so many factors come into why players will or will not come, also if the pricing of English players was not so expensive all the top clubs could take more risks with young english players if they haven't spent 20m on them like us and United recently some sections of the media would have us believe our wage bill is too high and in fact we need to move on the ultra expensive utter flops we have such as poulsen, jovanovic, cole et al. A plausible point to be sure. Others seem to state the case that in fact we've blown our budget already and now need to sell to buy. Is the plausible at all? We simply don't know. torres+bable= carroll+ suarez. a simple equation there, kyrgiakos getting another deal this summer (contractually obliged?) the debate (or accusation) seems to have moved from we've no money to we've spent all we had already. Speculation is just that we have no official information so, speculative comments should be taken as such 2. leaving aside the transfer activity we need to look at the gaping holes in our squad. Left back, the perennial debate about wingers and the fact n'gog is STILL our only back up to carroll unless we move kuyt up top. In this respect all the top clubs are not brislting with fantastic forwards, United consider Owen one of their 4 main strikers amonsgt other issues, Chelsea have Drogs possibly going, Anelka, ancient too and a misfiring Torres as well to boot in their ranks arsenal are having their own striker problems, spurs have the inconsistent Dafoe Crouch n co. none of the top teams whave who they really want in their ranks for cover. I think the point has to be this side finished 6th, has it got what it takes in any way or shape to take 4th given the reputed player of the year and new fans idols are both away for copa america and won't be back for the season openers, will miss preseason and so forth. All clubs have this sort of thing to deal with one way or te other, half of chelsea went off to the african nations, part of the job, Kenny has already considered this months ago another year older at the back for Carra, agger no closer to reliable fitness, the point must be the negatives at this point outweigh the positives and throwing henderosn into the mix doesn't seem to pull any gaps either, not unless we expect gerrard not to be fit, merieles to go etc. I never rated Meireles and have been concerned for our CBs for 2 years now, I thought Agger would be the man to carry the captaincy on from Carra but that looks to be in serious doubt. Skytel is good when confident but Agger, his type, he got an awful time from Drogba in the CL in the first leg, most players would have crapped out in the second leg, or not wanted ot play but he played the next tie and owned Drogba, he worked it out and dealt with him, that to me is an intelligent player his fitness though, terrible waste of a great player, Kenny I am sure is looking hard at that aspect of the team I assure you! 3. The dose of reality needs to be that we simply are not at the races yet and any talk of trophies must be set i nthe context that unless something really radical happens between now and the end of august 5th is the best possible result we can realistically hope for. Lets let the season start, nooone has any idea who will perform and who won't, after a few games we'll have a better idea, I think some fans let the two losses deflate them at the end of the season. A lot of new players have arrived at the various teams. Big changes at United and they have no idea how it will pan out VDS being a massive change it would to any team losing a key player especially in that position. As for 5th, I assume you mean chemuarscty in the top 4. Now correct me if I am wrong but didn't city beat us 3 0 under woy when we were a shambles and under Kenny didnt we give em a thumping back, I disagree, I think we will finish above city, just look at their points haul last season, we should certainly be looking to top that tally! City, cheslea and utd are THE clubs right now, but yes arsenal could implode if fabregas and nasri, and indeed clichy, go this summer... but if we think that our side is good enough to complete yet.. thats not reality. Why are they?, United won the league, champs but there were fortunate circumstances going their way that helped, namely ars and che falling apart when they were in the driving seat. All teams ahead of us had a fairly consistent season club wise, we had two owners and two managers, three since last season a lot of what was going on was non football and a massive distraction to everyone at the club, to neglect this in considering our end results last season makes it pointless to consider it at all 4. The talk about our kids seems to sometimes equate them to barcelona, but barca only have 3-4 guys in there from one youth set up, pique returned to it, the pedros and busquets of this world are from a second wave of youths. they've done well but we have to go back to 95 for the last team like this in Ajax who won a CL then and of course the utd team of 4-5 guys who came in at once. Would you have said that about Busquets when he was at United? and thats my point, lets let the lads develope and get their chance. United rid themsevles of one of the best CBs going, because they didn't recognise how good he actually wa, time will tell with our lads, until then its the first teams job every youth we have coming in is a defender for one, there's not one you'd equate to fabregas, xavi or iniesta bar perhaps suso.. in other words while the blossoming youth set up is good in the next two years were are not going to see 5 guys take up the backbone of the side to fill the gaps i mentioned. Name me a team that has quality youth players coming through for every position\area? Carroll, young and English Henderson same, if these are longterm and turn out to be great players thats a couple of vertabrae anyway
