"My concern is we assume that because of the previous success we had with Berba, Modric, Bale, that if any signings struggle, fans (or the club hierarchy), say "look what happened with Bale" or "look how Modric progressed". We could end up giving tine to players that are a lost cause, because of how previous players progressed." As I said, knowing when to give up on a player is a skill the on-pitch staff must have. That doesn't change, whatever era of football you are in. Apart from obvious attitude problems, I suspect that Spurs are more lenient on players because Levy has such a brutal grip on the wage bill. If the wage bill was of the level of our rivals, you can bet the squad churn would be a lot higher than it currently is.
So we both agree the arrival of 7 unproven signings was naive, and the DOF's job is to help create a balanced squad (with the manager) but you don't want to question Baldini as you personally don't have an issue with the players and rather blame the manager for not using the squad. All you're doing is finding a way to try and take any blame away from Baldini yet if the manager never used the squad properly then that would suggest he wasn't happy with the players and the DOF and manager failed to work together properly.
Still no excuse for keeping players like Rose & Naughton on the books for so long though. It's clear to anyone who watches football on a regular basis that neither are good enough for us.
"My personal opinion is that two or three of them will be extremely good, two or three average and one or two rubbish. That will be a good result." Like everything, at the minimum we could only judge that against the stats for our peers.
"Still no excuse for keeping players like Rose & Naughton on the books for so long though." That is more due to the options. BAE was sidelined, Fryers had not progressed to at least Roses' level. So Rose stayed. No vaguely decent RB cover for Walker. Naughton stays. Not a comment on their standard of play, but of the lack of depth in the squad and Academy in those positions.
Why not buy options then? Yes we can't pay wages like City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Utd and Liverpool but surely DoF and the manager/coach could identify some better full backs within the budget.
When did I say that I agreed about the signings? I explicitly disagreed. The squad was balanced and the manager/s used it incorrectly. There were plenty of available, experienced players but they were either overlooked or pushed aside. Those that were used were often played too often and picked up unnecessary injuries because of it. The most glaring example was Danny Rose. Preferred to Assou-Ekotto, who appears to have pissed off the manager completely, he was then played in a nothing game and missed half of the season. That forced the introduction of Vertoghen in a position which he hated playing, which pissed him off and alienated Fryers, who's since left. Four choices for one position and we still end up needing someone else to come in the following summer. How the hell is a DoF supposed to anticipate that?
I'm not concerned about having players like Rose, Naughton (who cost the club little) on the books ,as all clubs have players which fans would say aren't of the quality required. Its more about the core of the team which isn't of the standard and we lack any real spirit and identity which is a result of having a unbalanced squad, not just in players positions, but also nationalities/background, proven/unproven and a manager who is also unproven. The goons have a mix of players from worldwide, yet they have Ramsey, who they need to add that extra drive, that type of player is missing from our squad.
One problem is affording superior players who'll settle for back-up/competition places in the squad. Naughton's not going to displace Walker, but he's also not going to cause any problems in the dressing room. Rose had a very good season at Sunderland, then started the season pretty well for us, before missing something like 19 games through a stupid injury. It appears to be something of a problem position at the moment for many clubs, too. Liverpool have struggled with it, going through endless permutations and not being happy with any of them. Arsenal have brought in a variety of players on both sides and actually seem worse than they were there a few years ago. Man Utd are basically **** there, despite paying out a record amount on a left-back that their new manager doesn't seem to like.
"Why not buy options then?" Which brings us back to square one (will they be good for the club ?? ) . "Yes we can't pay wages like City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Utd and Liverpool but surely DoF and the manager/coach could identify some better full backs within the budget." Which is what we have done this summer with Davies and Dier.
Signing 7 unproven premier league players was a combined effort between manager and DOF. When a Manager discusses player arrival with a DOF, they will sit down and work out which players are needed for immediate use of the squad and which may need time to develop. Obviously none of us have access to the exact conversations which took place but if AVB had stated the players arriving would be purchased for use in the squad immediately and he needed time to see the development of the team then the DOF had to use his judgement to work with the manager and build a balanced squad. Overall the squad wasn't balanced last year and the experienced players pushed aside such as Adebayor and Ekotto where already out of the managers plan pre season, so that was an aspect Baldini was aware of. Fryers, personally I never wanted at the club and said it was a strange signing and doubted his quality for the 1st team. Am glad he is no longer with us. But overall I'm not laying all blame at Baldini yet I question his judgement and the role he played in last summers transfer window.
So every player the fans want to get rid of will end up being a success? Lets see if by the end of the season which of the players from last summer prove to be as good as you hope, as because it happened to Bale & Ramsey, then obviously that means we just have to bide our time and all will be a success.
Adebayor and Assou-Ekotto went out of the manager's plans over the course of the summer, for whatever reason. They both started the final game of the previous season and it's hard to tell when the need to replace them arose. Fryers may not have been up to scratch, but picking our only available senior left-back ahead of him against crap opposition in the Europa League was a disaster waiting to happen. Various people called it on the match thread at the time, so it's not 20/20 hindsight talking. When did I claim that every player that the fans didn't like would become a success? You seem to be trying to put words into my mouth. You made various points about Ramsey being an example of the kind of player that we needed to sign, whilst overlooking the fact that he would've been the exact opposite a short time ago. We certainly couldn't have filled his position by signing him from Cardiff when Arsenal did six years ago. We can't afford to buy someone that's proven in the Premier League and has performed at the highest level there for a substantial amount of time. There aren't many clubs that can, especially in a creative midfield role. Who was available there that we could realistically bring in and that would fit into the current manager's (or our previous manager's) style of play?
Agreed. Rose's inability to deal with anything above the average was demonstrated against Liverpool. Naughton? Let's not even go there!..
PNP it was tongue in cheek, I know you wasn't saying (literally) every player the fans don't rate will be a success! in response to your sarcastic comment regarding Ramsey! The point is players like Ramsey (or whoever we want to mention), players that come good over time, become a success because they where destined to be a success. My issue is giving time to players who are a lost cause. but because there are examples of players that need time then we hope they may follow the same route. When I say we need a player like Ramsey, its not just due to his position, its his drive, professional attitude and he has that quality where he wants to prove a point. That type of player I admire, even if he is a goon! Thats what I feel we are lacking, players who take a game by the scruff of the neck and step up to the plate.
I agree to some extent Boss, but I don't think that we're in a position to pick up someone that can do that right off the bat. Modric did it and he's now doing it at Real Madrid. He started quietly at both clubs and had to grow into the role. Where does our next Modric, Bale, van der Vaart or Berbatov come from? No idea. They're hard to spot, even harder to sign and we're up against clubs who can demolish us financially. Our best bet is to do what we've been doing and hope that our youth system continues to progress.
More likely that Levy won't countenance sales below current value and the scouting team lies to him about current value to cover up their mistakes....silly really because that just makes the mistake bigger.
To give the ever increasing financial gap some perspective, we spent some £100mil before the start of last season, most of it the proceeds of the sale of Gareth Bale. Never before have we spent anywhere near as much. Van Gaal has eclipsed that figure in a couple of months, and promises to spend yet more.
