I'm even more surprised that the BBC is being accused of being pro Israeli. I must be watching pictures from somewhere else in the world.
If you compare the coverage between the BBC and the French TV channels there is a difference of reporting. Both show the extensive damage in Gaza, but French TV shows more about the damage in Israel. The point is made here that Hamas is a terrorist organization and is using schools with children in them to store ammunition. I fear for the ordinary people on both sides who simply wish to get on with living a peaceful life, but with an organization that wants to see Israel wiped off the map, and a leader such as Benjamin Netanyahu who our last president described as an out and out liar when it comes to peace deals, I cannot see the way forward.
Then you don't understand how dehumanisation by media works lad. When they report on a dead Palestinian, they put a picture of a Palestinian protestor throwing a rock, even though it had nothing to do with the kid, like what that kid was burned to death, BBC put a picture of the kid, followed by a Palestinian in a scarf throwing a rock, a picture of the 3 dead Israeli teens and a picture of Hamas militants. A clear case of dehumanisation to give the impression the Palestinian brought it upon himself. This is how they roll. Ethnic cleansing 1948 and land grab. Invasion and occupation 1967-today Hamas first rockets, april 2001 Learn some history lad. Israel allows enough food in Gaza to stave off a humanitarian crises Has 3 sets of laws Israelis, Israelis Palestinians and Occupied territory Palestinians, Israeli Palestinian cannot marry a West Bank Palestinian and so on. 36 massacres of Palesiniians to date. 500+ towns destroyed several million refugees not allowed to return. Assassinations Intentional targeting of the civilian population. There must be something wrong with you to be cheering the deaths of kids, chanting "No school tomorrow" because all the kids are dead. Brainwashing, people are programmed to protect the young, not cheer their slaughter, only brainwashing can overcome your humanity like that. I will say this, if you treat a people like Israel has Palestinians for 7 decades, you will create people who hate you, create extremists, that you can't deny. Israel is a regional super power. Palestine never ever had an army, a tank, an APC, a plane or ship, even an artillery peice, nothing. The US pays for the iron dome, that shoots down 90% of those aimless rockets and of the 10% that get through nearly all of them hit the middle of nowhere. Israelis have an app that alerts them and they have shelters too. palestinains live in the most densley populated area on earth in an open air prison camp. The less people know about this the more they talk about Israel being right. Had any one of those pro Israel folks faced just a fraction of what Israel has done to Palestine then they'd think differently. Imagine England attacked by French militias, carrying out 31 massacres, destroying over 500 towns, and forcing half the population out and taking the land, then invading again 19 years later, butchering you and surrounding you, imagine them measuring the calories and letting in just enough food and mock you saying "we've put you on a diet", and when you protest this treatment they shoot your kids in the street. Raid you in the middle of the night and drag you out in front of your kids, not because you are a terrorist, but because you resist or they just suspect something. This is what happened and happens every day for decades and eventually when Hamas appear in 2001 then "oh it's the rockets." This war started and is kept going on false pretexts It was the teens.. They already knew they were dead and no proof at all who did it. Then the rockets.. They were only fired after Israel killed 9 Palestinians that week, and hundreds arrested and beaten Now, it's the tunnels which by the way bring in food medicine and cooking oil and fuel that the blockade will not allow through, and weapons but the vast majority is those other items. History repeats it's self, Ariel sharon carried out his massacre because an Israeli woman was murdered and again there was no proof at all who did it, not a clue. Israeli teens die, military matter, gang of Israelis burn a Palestinian teen to death, police matter. See, raicst apartheid state. Israel IDF has two open fire rules, one when only Palestinians are present and another if Palestinans and Israelis are present. Blantant racism Here's some chronology for you. Fatah and Hamas agree to unify as set out by the US and EU for the peace deal, FYI Hamas was created by Israel to split support for Fatah as they do not above all else want Palestine unified. Not a theory, a fact. Then 2 Palestinians teens were shot in the street, on camera for the world to see, just executed when walking along the street by a sniper. Still no Hamas action, no rockets since 2012. The 3 Israeli teens go missing, one made a phone call and the kidnapper spoke Hebrew to the boys before he murdered them. Netanyahu puts a court gag order on the press to prevent this information coming out, from the call and GPS of the phones they knew where the teens were dead and where the bodies were. Netanyahu blames Hamas immediately, without any proof, now known not to be Hamas but some group acting alone. Netanyahu claims he will destroy Hamas, Hamas who remember just agreed to unify with Fatah as part of the EU US brokered deal, a huge step forward. 20,000 IDF troops go into Gaza, (the murder happened in the West Bank not Gaza) and carry out over 1300 raids including arresting legislators and even rearrested the people they released as part of the last deal with Hamas. Netanyahu knew the kids were already dead and where they were, he wanted war. 7 more Palestinians were killed in this time. Then Hamas started firing rockets. That leads us to 3? Israeli deaths and over 1200 Palestinain civilian deaths. The UN told Israel 17 times that their school was ful of refugees that in fact the IDF told to go there. This is acording tot he UN. They still bombed the place. They even took out the only power station ffs. Gaza is the Warsar ghetto, that is exactly what it is and it is a tragic irony. learn the facts.
Sisu - you make some good points and are obviously a fervent believer in your cause. However your sneering use of the term "lad" to Dan Starkey is more likely to turn people off from listening to your arguments. Dan is a well respected poster on here and does not deserve to be called "lad" by you. It is a clear attempt to put him down but for me it backfires as it makes me more likely to decide that your opinions are flawed. You have a case to make so just make it. You are not the only person to have an opinion and are not the only one to know some facts but you use your facts selectively. I am not going to argue now on specifics but if anyone believes that one side is right and one side wrong in this dispute then they are naive. There is right and wrong on both sides. We like a good debate here so show you understand the complexity and present your case in an even handed way if you can - you will find you convince more people that way I am sure.
A good post by Sisu with lots of points which I can't disagree with. I've read some of his posts on the Liverpool board on this subject (which might explain the use of the word 'lad', used differently up there) and in those he quotes some of the opposition within Zionist circles. This is important to remember - that Israel is not Judaeism as a whole, and that the vast majority of Jews are neither Israelis nor members of the Israeli government. In a sense Netanyahu's government is deeply anti Jewish - and draws it's heaviest criticism from Zionists. We need dialogue with Jewish people everywhere to help clarify that criticism of Israel is not the same as anti semitism - and that the first is humanitarian and the second evil.
That does not make it ok for Hamas to fire rockets into Israel from school and hospital grounds during an agreed cease-fire! Hamas WANTS Israel to kill children and civilians for propaganda purposes!
You're argueing from a 'Western' viewpoint here Dave. For you or I these acts would be inconceivable. However if you had been brought up under occupation, as a second or third class citizen, under permanent threat of bombing or murder - and your father before you, then maybe you would react differently. People only resort to what we label `terrorist attacks' if nothing else has worked for them, and if they are confronted by a highly equipped army with whom open opposition 'in the field' is impossible. I have had to do with many youths who have been traumatized by war (mostly from Kosovo) and it will be a miracle if they can ever forget and forgive.
People who expound violence as a way to resolve issues and who show a lack of care for all human life - not least children are misguided - whther they are Palestinian, Hamas, Israeli, Jewish or anything else. Life is precious and should be respected - humans are not shields to hide behind and seeking revenge no matter who you kill is wrong.
Both the French and Belgian resistance movements used methods which were perhaps 'unacceptable', also against collaborators and their families. However, they were on the 'right' side, and history deals differently with them. Whether you are classified as a 'terrorist' or a 'freedom fighter' being decided by the winners, who write most of the history books. Opposition to violent regimes sometimes has to use similar methods - or are you suggesting that those who fought against Hitler were wrong to do so ?
One man's freedom fighter is always another man's terrorist. David Ben Gurion, Yasser Arafat and Nelson Mandela are examples of "terrorists" who went on to acclaim as statesmen. I think to open the debate to the Nazis and Hitler is going too wide - whether or not I agree with how we approached the First and Second World Wars I concede that once we were in a state of total warfare then all actions were reprehensible if perhaps necessary. You correctly quote the oppression of the Palestinian people and their "understandable" response to years of subjugation. Think though of the psyche of Jews who had centuries of hatred and oppression - is anyone surprised they feel persecuted? They believe they are (still) in a fight for their very existence - do you think they are wrong? My argument is that violence is not a solution to problems. That is why I am opposed to strikes (for me violence against others albeit minor), capital punishment and all forms of war. We have to rise above our animal natures and find how to resolve problems through negotiation. I totally understand why both the Israelis and Palestinians behave as they do - I just do not accept it and believe they need to find a way that really works as clearly their way does not. Some years ago Northern Ireland was in a similar state of coninued violence - yet peace is now largely observed through people talking to each other. Hamas and the Israeli Government need to talk.
Getting the Israeli government to talk would imply them accepting that Palestinians are not third class citizens, otherwise no dialogue would be meaningfull. They need to withdraw from all illegally held territories and settlements, and accept the concept of a Palestinian State - just as they themselves want to be accepted. They need to allow Palestinians and Arabs who have converted to Jewry full rights of citizenship within their own territories. They also need to recognize that international criticism is not the same as anti semitism or Nazism - a trick which Israel often plays. Can you see any of that happening ? Only when the Jewish international community starts speaking out more often in unison, disassociating themselves from the crimes of Israel - only then can we begin to see the seeds of everlasting peace. Only when Jews can realize that criticizing Israel is not at the same time criticizing them as a race or religion. I have known some Jewish people over the years who have lived in Israel, but have returned (to Germany of all places) because they could not stand the propaganda and the brainwashing involved in settling there. I understand what you say about their history Leo but we cannot turn the clock back and change all that happened - the Holocaust and Israeli aggression now are two different things.
I agree with just about everything you said there Cologne. Although your last sentence is not relevant. My point about oppression of Jews was made simply to balance your point about oppression of Palestinians - it has nothing to do with turning back clocks. Both "histories" form the current day psyche of the people there. No I can't see any of that happening as you ask. I can see both sides continuing to make war on each other. Does that make anything right or help to reslve matters though? No. You state a list of things the Israelis need to do - but those are he matters that have to be discussed - they are not the precursor to discussions. Neither side respects the other and they wont at the start of talks. They hate each other. That is a given but just like the two sides in Northern Ireland hated each other it did not prevent talks. The two sides need to be "forced" to talk by the forces that support them - most notably (as with the IRA) the USA. Yes it would be helpful if the Jewish international community tried to help - as it would if the Arabs did the same. The West believes in sanctions when it suits them - but not always.
there is much wrong with Sisu's post but i'm afraid i'm weary of pointing out the blatantly obvious..so call me a pathetic coward, but i'm out of this thread now, the frustration i feel right now is the reason i have come off twitter and facebook!
No it's not. Synagogues all over Europe including UK are being targeted with either physical or verbal abuse as its typical that in these idiots eyes that all Jews are zionists and vice versa. I've also seen much made of who was where first. Well Judaism wins that hands down or did Solomons temple appear post Islam? As for Israel and its brainwashing, wow... That's not happening with Hamas then? The same missile firing thugs who hide in hospitals and kill their own people indiscriminately if they do not subscribe to their point of view. I'm Christian so have no bias in this conflict but object to the media, mainly the Guardian, BBC and channel four giving a one eyed unbalanced argument that blatantly is to appease and attract the more aggressive subscribers to the great religion of peace in this country and to the odious left wing ( the real neo fascists). Israel is not perfect but it's the nearest thing to democracy we have in the ME. And it is also dismaying to discount the Holocaust as flippantly as you have, and that's where the real danger lies. Make no mistake, Gaza is just practice for the greater issue...world dominance, and my not so much friend, perhaps then you'll reconsider you're views. By the way ask the Palestinian gay population of Tel Aviv where they'd rather be? No contest, alive in Israel is better than stoned to death in Gaza, and that olive branch is extended by Israel to anyone be it Jew, Arab, Christian or any other religion that respects its just rights to exist without the fear and threat of being driven into the Red Sea once more. One more thing, I find it telling the lack of global condemnation of the three Israeli teenagers murdered for bing nothing other than Israeli Jews received very little condemnation from one eyed observers such as the said media and probably yourself. Three young frightened Kids, murdered for being what fate had decreed. The silence is deafening. Forgive my lack of punctuation for I have forgiven you Americanisation of certain words..and I'm needing a beer in a hurry
I'm not exactly clear who you're speaking to here - so I don't feel the need to reply. Please go off and have your beer, enjoy it, and then you can come back and express yourself in a manner which I can understand. Oh, and welcome to the board by the way !
No need to welcome me...I guess we have drawn our lines. And yes I was talking to you...sanctimonious...what a great word for those who think that by either class or education are so damned better than everyone else.
"Last Sunday, a pro-Palestinian demonstration in Paris attended by several thousand people descended into violence when some protesters clashed with police, while a small group tried to storm two synagogues in the city centre." "The scuffles involved both pro-Palestinian activists and members of the Jewish Defence League (JDL), a group deemed a “right-wing terrorist group” by the FBI and banned in both the USA and Israel, but not in France." The above are taken from France News 24 and give a small insight into how opinion is divided in a country that really doesn't wish to be involved. Hamas is clearly hoping to gain sympathy from the world, yet they did sign an agreement to be peaceful and agree to the state of Israel. It seems as though when you read into what is happening they have a group within who never agreed to that. Which voice of Hamas can you believe? A lot has been made of the tunnels used to transport not only food, but weapons under the border, but the tunnels also existed under the Egyptian border until they were closed off. The Israelis should no doubt have stopped and thought about the loss of support they would receive from the world community before shelling schools. No matter what they believed was being stored there, they could not have hoped to kill children without a backlash. At the end of the day negotiations to halt the violence will have to take place, and the sooner the better, but I am not holding my breathe. John Major started the talks in Ireland to try and stop the violence there, and he was long gone before the agreement was reached. Even today there are parties who try to stir the pot again, but the politicians seem to keep them under some control. Until the peaceful elements in the middle east gain full control the terrorist's will create trouble.
so is firing thousands of rockets at women and children in the hope of killing as many as possible an act of terrorism or not
I have never suggested that it was not an act of terrorism, but terrorists are not born they are made. I have also criticized Israel's form of state terrorism more sharply in my posts because it is backed up by a highly equipped military apparatus which can do considerably more damage. Israel's bombs, tanks rockets etc are also paid for by American and British money and are mostly made in America or Germany and so they are, in a sense, used in our name.
