"There is no school tomorrow, there ae no children left in Gaza" boast Israelis. "Gaza is a cemetery" "Oleh Oleh" [video=youtube;h7qFACSfd_k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=h7qFACSfd_k[/video] Cheering on the killing of children, a true sign of a truly damaged and distorted society.
Live stream of Gaza from Belfast Telegraph site. http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...-live-streaming-video-from-gaza-30446616.html
I think we already knew and accepted that most of those pro Israel's current action...(need to be precise there, you can be pro Israel's existence yet anti their current strategy for example)) claims were bollox but there's a couple of context issues in that piece also. They appear to be using Milks "its only a couple of rocket attacks a month now" argument...Hamas controls Gaza, if Hamas has ordered a ceasefire and five attacks a month are still coming then Hamas doesn't control Gaza. Now I make this point not to justify the Israeli response, it doesn't but to highlight a point I made last night. Agreements can be signed all day long by Israel but it would be political suicide to allow five attacks a month to fall on its citizens during a supposed peace. (Or even if it's just one a month after iron dome). Because I bet that agreement would have an "Israeli can't attack Palestine clause in it" right? And Hamas has not attempted during that time to apprehend or hand over those responsible has it? And it never will will it? C'Mon accept there is blinkers on both sides! This also pours scorn on the 10 year ceasefire claim put forward in the piece. 5 rocket attacks a month is not a ceasefire. And again I'm absolutely certain Hamas would not bring those who continued under control. If they could not or would not over the last year why could they or would they if Israel gave them their wish list? And if they can't what us to stop those doing it from increasing their capabilities across all those open borders? Oh and is anyone naive enough not to question a time limited agreement...could it be suspected that 10 years would be ample time for Hamas to reap in political kudos for getting the concessions, rearm or gain more advanced weaponry, and have easier access across the now open boarders. Israel whether you have agreed with their strategy or not has got Hamas down to throwing the modern equivalent of rocks (that kill it's people who elect it's politicians). Why after all this time and all the international criticism would they allow all that to be reversed totally and know in their minds that in 10 years or less they'll have to face a resurgent and strong Hamas or replacement group yet again..And be faced with the same choices yet again... .the 10 years without recognition of an Israeli state is simply taking a breather in your efforts to kill them. Israel can't take that chance. Human shield: this definition of holding people in place forcibly is a strang one. In a confined area with limited accommodation like Gaza, if Hamas has its posts, weapons cache and firing sites throughout the civilian population it is using them as a human shield. The population have nowhere to go. I'm assuming Hamas doesn't knock on the door and say "hi neighbour, just moved a mini HQ and arms store next door do you mind awfully if Israel start to bombard this general area as a result, if not we've got you a replacement house in a safe place but beside your job?" They know it's going to be bombed and its a deliberate strategy leaving Israel with a choice....allow attacks to come with no response (guaranteed civilian deaths at home) or attempt to stop attacks with guaranteed civilian casualties in Palestine. Not much of a choice is it? Israel not accepting a Palestinian state. Sure we knew that already, just like once you get past the swerving and evasiveness on the Palestinian side you can see there is no agreed vision of same state between the Palestinian factions or an agreed acceptance of the continuation of an Israeli state... Encouraging this Tit for tat PR battle is pointless. It harms us in no way but simply allows both sides wiggle room to continue on with the killing and inflexibility of position.
Dave, my last reply to you on this topic since you keep inventing false accusations. I never once mentioned Israel paying reparations to Palestine.
There are lies on both sides but.. Israel playing the part of the victim is the most sickening thing to witness. I can't think of any other invader to ever pretend to be the victim of the occupation. I like the quote in there. You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts. Israel supporters make an argument made up almost entirely of their own facts. There is nothing more flabbergasting that reading some of the stuff Pro Israel supporters come out with. There was no problem in this region between Arabs and Jews for centuries until Europe through the Balfour agreement exported Zionists and their European racism into the region. Or rather Britain gave away someone elses land. Look at what happened after drawing imaginary lines in Ireland, Nigeria and Palestine. Same outcomes, war death racism on a scale never seen and a racism or sectarianism never before experienced by those places. Natural genetically instilled Tribalism yes, racism not so much. This process has prevented the natural development of those nations and magnified tribal differences. When you talk to an Israel supporter, I almost feel sorry for them, they just repeat total fabrications as fact and when faced with actual facts and different opinion they attack you personally and call you a Nazi. I have experienced this on this f**ing board. I have also seen some shockingly awful historical recounting by the odd individual, totally wrong and possibly intentionally so.
" And no, yet again it's in black and white I didn't call you a Nazi, I called you anti Jewish because you clearly are. The only reason you appear to be on this Board is I guess because you can't last ten minutes on the politics forum among the grown ups. They have a little too much intellect for you pet? Someone check Sisu's last 200 posts. How many of them were about LFC on a thread created on the Liverpool board? The United threads dont count as they merely prove my belief that he's simply a variant WUM. Yes hiding here ranting about topics that he gets his ass handed to him on the for purpose forums.....
I quote "I would stage a coup in Israel. Open the borders- return all occupied land- offer an apology for the actions of my country and ask that our countries henceforwards live in peace- and assure the Palestinians that there would be no more violence from us as long as Palestine remains peaceful as an independent free nation without the shackle of Israel holding it down. " Now sounds very like reparations to me. But if you don't want to continue the dialogue that is your choice. The sad thing is that nobody who has commented in this thread is happy with the present situation. However, whilst Hamas refuses to enter any meaningful negotiation then this debacle will continue. As Frank has said Hamas has the means and the authority to remove civilians from the worst of the fighting yet refuses to do what what is in the best interests of its people. Therefore why do you expect Israel to adopt a less belligerent stance.
Now I know you are truly stupid! Neither Frank nor I are Pro Israeli. Both of us are demonstrating that the situation is more complex than you appear to be able to cope with and that Israel is not merely The Evil Empire of the Middle East.
It's ok Dave, he's back to pretending he's blocked everyone that calls him stupid and can't see our posts. He was even quoting Milks responses to me yesterday as if Milk hadn't actually quoted me in said responses....then adding a little jibe lol. It'd be funny if it wasn't sad. I mean I've personally disagreed with Tobes Hash and Milk on this thread at times and because they all have the intelligence to realise I'm being specific in my disagreement it's gone fine. These 3 have taken the position of challenging Israel's assertions and justifications for their actions. Something I think is proper and necessary to do. Israel can not simply do what it likes and expect the rest of the world to treat them with the respect and recognition that they expect and crave. What I believe Dave and I have done is balance the debate somewhat as no one seemed to highlight the thinking behind the Israeli actions. If you dont understand that the Israelis deep down among their own PR rubbish actually believe the various threatening scenarios are real then you can never understand them and negotiations are impossible. If you are not taking the position that Israel should be destroyed (apart from our resident lunatic I've seen no evidence anyone here does) then negotiation is the only other path away from the status quo. You can't do that if you've simply painted Israel as a two dimensional evil empire as Dave stated. The other thing I believe Dave, UIR and I have attempted to do is challenge this notion that Hamas and the Palestinian people are one entity as the victims when being bombed by Israel but somehow separate when Hamas is the agressor. You can't negotiate with one if the other is the part shooting and from among the other too. This mistake the nutjob keeps making about harping back to when it all started many moons ago is pointless and a block to progress. Yes understand how we got here (for all his talk he doesn't get it) but it can't be the negotiating position. That has not happened in any successful conflict resolution around the globe so far. The nutjob represents every extremist on the planet. Intolerant, bitter and sees all who deviate from his worldview as the enemy. The fact some people may share this bit or that opinion with him doesn't make them as crazy. Just like someone pro Israel doesn't make them approve of current actions. I'm criticizing him not for being pro Palestinian but for his way of expressing himself and responding to criticism. My actual own view? Israel exists and won't be dissolved so anything else about its origins is irrelevant. It has to be dealt with as a permanent state by all parties. Palestinians have the right to their own nation. That nation can not be what they had before as Israel exists. The international community should once this idea is accepted pump all the resources under the sun into the new version of Palestine to make it a jewel of whatever industries we put there deliberately. Think of Japan or south Korea. But.......the Palestinians have to want it and have to let go. The Israelis have to want it and let go. Until they do they're both at fault for any bloodshed. Capability and restraint are sidesteps to the issue. Yes I consider any deliberate violent act on civilians am act of terror be it from a state or otherwise but every party in this conflict has done it and been supported by its people for doing it so convict all and nothing changes or move on?
Really worth a watch. Former IDF soldier. He says it himself, Israelis are taught that being against Zionism is antisemitic, being anti Zionist is being against Jews, this is the brainwashing I keep mentioning. [video=youtube;93hqlmrZKd8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=93hqlmrZKd8[/video]
I can go on Youtube and bring you many videos of Palestinians in support of israel. (against hamas) the reason I dont is it proves nothing. Videos can be staged, lies are told and none of us know if what is being said is legitimate. That applies to both sides of the argument.
Frank, I believe that you synthesised the situation when you outlined your own view in the final few paragraphs. Neither of the major players is totally right or wrong. However, until both sides really want to seek a solution it will go on.
Frank .... off topic but so what. I know you are of the other persuasion but youve got to admit, that pensioner in bessbrook yesterday deserves the Darwin award 2014. "Och look wullie someones put that dastardly terrorist fleg oan the trees over the lake, I'll grab ma union flegs and replace them foreign ones. Ach ****it ahll swim over." a ****ing pensioner no less. And wullie fraser blaming the ra. You couldnt make it up
A new Holocaust is imminent, if one is to believe Israeli MPs, who spent the afternoon berating European officials about the growing antiwar protests across their countries, centered on criticizing the Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip. Officials blamed “one-sided” media reports on the large number of dead civilians in Israel’s attack, and demanded the European Union impose “strict regulations on the format and content” of antiwar demonstrations going forward. Some of the EU officials present, notably Danish officials, insisted that they had a right to free expression that would be abridged by the proposed “regulations,” but Israeli officials were having none of it, insisting that criticism of Israel was anti-Semitism in and of itself, and that “there is a difference between free speech and incendiary speech.” The Israeli proposal would see the creation of a Special Commissioner in the European Union that would empowered to “monitor” antiwar protesters and restrict them from portraying Israel an “an aggressor” during its assorted invasions of Palestinian territory. Who the **** do they think they are ?
This isn't too far from my own beliefs. I do think Palestine should get their land back though. The land claimed via settlements that violate all UN agreements... or at least be compensated for those lands- Palestine and Israel to agree and suitable fee- or land exchange. I do think that the ball is in Israel's court. Palestine has no power to influence what happens. They can't bargain with Israel diplomatically because they have nothing to offer Israel in exchange for freedom. Hamas and other militant groups are never going to have much influence militarily- they're not really worrying Israel too much- a few stray rockets hitting farmland- the few on target being shot down before causing damage. Israel is the only player who can make a change. I don't expect any change though because it would be political suicide for a party to be the one to let go of Palestine. So... this cycle of violence will continue for the foreseeable future, interrupted by periods of peace. I do worry for Israel's long term-future though. 100 years from now will they exist? If the US/West were ever involved in a real war that drained their resources- would the middle eastern nations resist banding together again and attacking Israel again? They'd be more hesitant if they saw Israel as a vital ally and trading partner. Hopefully that will come with time.
