I would stage a coup in Israel. Open the borders- return all occupied land- offer an apology for the actions of my country and ask that our countries henceforwards live in peace- and assure the Palestinians that there would be no more violence from us as long as Palestine remains peaceful as an independent free nation without the shackle of Israel holding it down.
It's pretty simple UIR. There is no guarantee that Israel will not have security problems if they end the occupation and remove the settlers, but.. it is 100% guaranteed that Israel will have security problems that will become a higher risk as time passes. I've seen your posts about bombing Uruguayans. I am not sure you'd be the right person to be controlling an army lad, any relation to butcher Harris?
Know it wouldn't HAPPEN. The violence is caused by Israel blockading some territory and occupying other territory. If Israel just grew-up and returned the land there would be no more legitimate reason for violence. There will still be idiots and extremists who will attack Israel for being Jewish- but the main stream support for violence will stop. It won't happen. But that's the required move.
I don't think UIR has read much of this thread or listened to the people in the footage provided, actual Israelis former IDF, journos that worked there 20 years, and just repeats the BBC line over and over. Quite a few people in this thread have provided a free education for him and he won't avail of it Hamas are a resistance organisation and I don't think he gets that, the occupation is decades going and Hamas didn't start firing rockets for decades. It's like watching some guy take a million unwarranted punches and then calling him a terrorist when he throws a pathetic punch back.
Ok, all good particularly for the surviving Palestinian people...they get food, water and energy again. Noble effort and morally right........ if you believe it's ok to overthrow a democratically elected government........ And then Hamas who's main aim is the destruction of Israel now has its arms supplies restocked across those now open borders and starts a new upgraded campaign to destroy Israel, still hiding among the Palestinians who despite your apologies, returned lands and status are either still in fear of Hamas or actually now believe they (Hamas)actually forced Israel into these concessions and yes still hate you (with reason or not) and Hamas is saying tobits "own" people "the final goal is close now folks oh and by the way we'll kill you if you tout on us....." Israelis our dying in the new bomb attacks, rockets etc etc. The iron dome is made irrelevant due to your lifting of all restrictions so car bombs and bombs in Israeli cafes and public buildings al la Iraq are going off weekly with dozens dying and hundreds injured each time. The Israeli people now look at you, the guy who did this to them...... Now what do you do? Unless when you said "return all occupied land" you meant the dissolution of Israel itself?
No... I don't... although I don't believe it is morally right what Israel is doing either. Also... I'm pretty sure the military would mutiny against me- so I wouldn't be able to carry out my actions... Nonetheless, Hamas would be strongly weakened by the move- would not have anywhere near the support, or financial support (needed for weapons). Hamas runs out of money- instead of an organized group attacking you- now it's low funded extremists who hate you, and always will hate you. Isrealis will die in terrorist attacks... but fewer than the number of people being killed currently.
I can't see an issue with the end to the occupation, leave the settlements and open up Israel to the Palestinians, it is already one state and one army. There will be problems but their will also begin the healing, it may be angry and violent and mistakes will be made but in 30 40 years as the new generations grow up, more marriages between the two, more friends and so on with full integration of both peoples, there would be peace and security. It is already 1 state with 2 names, Palestine or Israel, and 3 sets of rights, Israelis, Palestinian Israelis and Palestinians in the occupied territories. Just open all borders change racist laws and have one equal state. All that is actually missing is the will. Egypt is no f**ing angel here either, they also blockade Palestinians and Tony f**ing Blair is advising their tyrant currently. France withdrew 1,000,000 settlers and that went fine, not ending the occupation is a guarantee of constant fighting, constant slaughter.
So Israel's part of your deal is some of its people die every year from now on as what...penance, collateral damage ....? Because obviously any action to find these isolated terrorists is now in practical terms impossible as they are in a separate state and the new Palestinian government is obviously going to find them and extradite them to Israel for trial because that will go down well in an embittered Palestinian public who all have a realative or friend killed by the Israelis. They'll not be seen as Israeli puppets and Hamas won't gain new strength as a result...... Good luck selling that to the Israeli public and keeping your power. This only works (as has been seen here) if the violent parties come to the table. The Palestinian people are not the violent party, it's Hamas. Sisus romantic description of Hamas as a plucky resistence force waving wooden swords is farcical at best.
There will always be terrorist attacks. As long as the current generation lives, Yes! There already ARE terrorist attacks. Israelis already die because of Islamic terrorists. As long as Israel occupies and suppresses their neighbours those attacks will be worse. Hamas gains it strength, support, and finances from showing that it fights the "evils of Israel"- if Israel stopped abusing people- Hamas would lose strength. I realise it would not be politically popular in Israel... hence it not having happened. It is still the right thing to do. Isrealis currently have the opinion that it is worth killing a couple dozen Palestinians so that one Israeli may live. Hamas isn't targeting Britain... because Britain isn't occupying Palestine. They're not targeting France, or Germany, or Japan, or Russia, or South Africa. (although Al Qaeda obviously attacked the West for our support of Israel and presence in the middle east) The IRA never attacked Denmark. The Uyghur people aren't attacking Argentina. They attack the people they perceive to be occupying them and persecuting them. If Israel stops persecuting them (or Palestine stops believing that Israel is persecuting them) then the terrorism from that sector will become less.
Exactly why i asked. Its the impossible call. Franks said pretty much what i was going to say. And sisu, i have read the thread and most of whats been said is selective at best. Think hash askrd me for vids and reports of palestinians who prefer israel. Theres a few around and many polls supporting this claim. After all, israel offers them work, relative safety and a possible life. Hamas simply dont. No arab country can. It simply doesnt suit the agenda to show Palestinians who support israel (not their actions, the state). They do so in silence though as we all know to speak out in favout would likely mean death.
Its not the right thing to do. Its giving in to terror and sets a precedent. Every terrorist group would think it terrormas.
For me i would work on building support for palestinians. Provide jobs for them, improve health care and begin trade with palestinians. I would at first maintain a military force doing all this and i would not just drop all sanctions. Im thinking years and very slow progress. Over time i would start to offer citizenship. Giving all the benefits israelis enjoy. My aim is to intergrate the two peoples and remove the fear. Once people have jobs, money, hopes and dreams tge draw of tge extremists withers away. Hamas would be powerless. Their only hope is fear and they would begin attacking their own. The palestinians would support my military as they move to crush what's left of hamas. In the end, the sanctions are removed, boarders are opened (though protected) amd tge military is replaced with a police force. Would i give the land back? Not sure, i would need to see evidence that they can govern themselves.
Nelson Mandela was accused of being a terrorist too! Indeed, he was involved in a number of violent acts- as an organizer. Torture, placing landmines, blowing up bars...etc... all part of the policy of the militant group founded by Mandela. Should Apartheid have stayed in place so that South Africa couldn't be accused of giving in to terrorism? I don't believe there was an increase in terrorism after Apartheid fell... In fact Mandela became president and South Africa became a much more peaceful country. South Africa and Apartheid is actually pretty similar to Israel actually the more you think of it. One race- suppressing another and keeping them in poverty and limiting where they can live... not allowing free movement etc. In SA it was European whites and the native African blacks. In Israel it is European Whites suppressing the native Middle Eastern people.
Good points mate, resistance is always called terrorism by the oppressor. Afghanistan is also a perfect example, a terrorist attacks people, many were grabbed after conflicts and called terrorists, for fighting US troops. That is not a terrorist, when you invade a country and people fight back, that does not make them terrorists no matter how unpalatable they are, like say the Taliban, people think they are like Al Qaeda, they are not, they were the Afghan government, unsavory as they were. They were not terrorists. They are not alone in their actions in the middle east, look at the head chopping saudis and the world seems to accept that lot for some strange reason, Royal visits Bush loves em too. Hamas are also not specifically targeting anyone, they are firing blind literally, trying to hit back. @UIR get it into your head. Israel said it was going to destroy Hamas, declared war on Hamas and raided over a thousand homes, killed 9 Palestinians in 3 weeks and arrested and beat hundreds including arresting Hamas legislators who had nothing to do with the 3 Israeli teens they knew were already dead for days. THEN HAMAS FIRED ROCKETS. Stay away from the BBC and Daily mail mate. Israel started the 2nd Intifada. They started this slaughter, nearly 3000 dead civilians from both invasions now. Nearly 10,000 homes destroyed, hundreds of thousands of refugees, over 500 children killed, thousands injured. For what, Israel has suffered over both "wars" 5 or 6 civilian deaths, 40 military. 1 Israeli home destroyed. all that without counting the cost in between those years. Are you f**ing delusional
Uir ... simple terms for you. Your 5 year old brother throws stones at my car, I pull in beat him to a pulp then call to your house kicking the **** out of the rest of the family and smashing the place up. I then practically camp outside your gate not letting repair men in or your family out. Am I right because of the stone throwing 5 year old ? Is it your families fault they're in this quandry ?
1)your comparisons and your belief of the foundations of why there is a cessation (I'm inferring your meaning so apologies if I get it wrong) of violence in Ireland is flawed. The IRA and political wing see the current process as part of a journey to their aims. They have not given up that aim. As Hash and I discussed earlier there's roughly a 50 year cycle to peace and violence in Ireland. We've been here before and the violence returned. It will return again if a) the current republican movement dont see progress to a United Ireland happening. Or b) they are usurped by a new faction that successfully convinces enough of the people that the establishment have sold out. But even in the current process there are specific differences in Ireland that can't be replicated in Palestine. The IRA didn't have to give up its aim to a United Ireland. They could allow the republics govt to do that for them so they saved face. Since the IRA no more recognize the republics government they can allow that and always state this later if a return to violence becomes their primary option again. Hamas through bloody almost civil war in Palestine (people seem to forget that bit of recent history) are the current power in Gaza. They do not and will not recognize the state of Israel . Even if somehow negotiations with Israel had Israel do all those things on your tick list without Hamas giving up its aim of destroying Israel (impossible because that would simply create a nation state who's government openly still declared war on its neighbour) but anyway. You're still expecting Israel to take terrorist attacks and not respond for ever more. There is no way a Hamas participating government will cooperate like the ROI and the UK do in combatting these "isolated" terrorist incidents. (By the way, you know Hamas are Islamic....you seemed to separate them from other anti Israeli groups.....) They will not actively hunt down the 'new' or 'other' terrorists and hand them over to Israel. They can't or they will be seen as Israel's puppet and will be replaced. So there is not a state in the world that would take a deal that promised the sporadic death of its citizens without being able to respond and accept that its neighbour actively hid those responsible. Not one that could survive anyway. This is the problem with conflicts like this: people who do not live there, draw up stuff on paper and see it as perfectly reasonable and perfectly possible. Those same people should be forced to then live in their brave New world. Once they see their child die in a car bomb and can shrug their shoulders and say "its all for the common good" then fine. I don't mean to dismiss you but could you honestly accept your own government doing that? Could you accept the chance that your family are killed by terrorists AFTER the peace deal and your government has as part of the deal gave up the power to pursue them? I do think however there's possibilities. As was always known here in Northern Ireland , the current process of negotiations started back in the early 1980's at the height of the worst violence. The players continued their murderous violence and further inflexible rhetoric for twenty years right up to signing the current agreement. It's slow it's painful and it started when everyone was doused in blood. Now if someone with detailed knowledge of Palestinian internal politics (that isn't a deranged westerner simply enjoying the car crash) can show me that Hamas would not only be willing to accept Israel as a state in return for Milks shopping list but also be able to control the internal politics without violence and not he replaced by another "death to Israel" group then there's hope of a settlement as I think this is the deal clincher point. I just dont see it yet.
I'd pay good money to have 5 minutes alone in a locked room with his ****. [video=youtube;nOcy09KVydE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nOcy09KVydE[/video]
The important point here being that Mandela lead his group to non violence to all intents and purposes why still being beaten and murdered. Would the world have been as sympathetic if he'd still been bombing innocent white south Africans (or dictating such violence from jail)? And as Mandela failed in his last year's and now after his death ask the white farmers who have faced increasing violence including murder as they're forced off their farms. it's not politic to make a big deal of it as you get the response of "remember the x thousands of blacks that died compared to these handful" (that's sounds familiar).... But that's how it started in Zimbabwe; look where that ended, the bread basket of Africa a famine and violence torn country. South Africa's test is the next 50 years not the ones when their uniting icon lived.
Hamas isn't targeting Britain because there is presently no mileage in doing so for them. Now find the right set of circumstances and that can change very quickly. Isn't it good of the IRA to never attack Denmark. Should the population of Denmark feel beholding to the IRA for not doing so? Your proposals for what Israel should do is equally facile. Not until Hamas publicly states that it no longer dedicates itself to the obliteration of Israel and joins in efforts to secure Israel's security could the type of actions you propose even have a minimal chance of being successful. However, even the IRA have proved that if you don't engage in talking and cooperating with your enemies then you are on a road to nowhere.
