Joey giving it large on Israel

Hamas is designated as a terrorist organization by Israel and a number of Western and non-Western governments; The United States, Canada, the European Union,Jordan, Egypt and Japan classify Hamas as a terrorist organization. Other states, however, including Iran, Russia, Turkey, China and many Arab nations do not.

Mousa Mohammed Abu Marzook, deputy chairman of Hamas, said in 2014 that "Hamas will not recognize Israel", adding "this is a red line that cannot be crossed"

 

True. The stated aim of Hamas is to establish an Islamic State in the area which is now Israel, the West Bank and Gaza. Although there has been some contradiction over the years, the current position is that Hamas will 'never' recognise Israel. Which is a tricky starting point for negotiations.

 

Right NY, so some Countries designate it so and others do not. Perhaps you should have mentioned that initially?

But seeing as you're so fond of official terms of reference, have you anything to say about Israel having broken more UN resolutions than all the other member States combined?

The main problem coming from religious people in the west (Jews and Christians), as I alluded to earlier, is that they say because somewhere is the spiritual home of a particular people, they believe it gives foreigners the right to come from all four corners of the World and forcibly evict the people who have lived there for the intervening 2 or 3 millennia, all in the name of the religious text that was (apparently) dictated by their god. Its this kind of illogicality - some might say lunacy - that has driven this whole Zionist movement from the UK's foreign Minister James Balfour's declaration in 1917, through the setting up of this so-called sate in the aftermath of WW2, right up to the present day. There is not, never was and can never be any justification for the occupying and settlement of someone else's land based on these kinds of ridiculous notions of divine intercession on behalf of a particular race of human beings. Its actually quite demented when you think about it.

This is not really a complicated situation. Those on the religious right will continue to try muddy the waters by insisting that it is but its really quite straightforward. Where there is injustice, there will be resistance. Not until that injustice has been removed can there be peace.

Remember, Nelson Mandela was a "terrorist" according to these people too...

 

So...........what would your solution be? Where would the Israelis live? Where would the Palestinians live?

 

Well, first of all the injustices would have to be rectified. You won't have peace without justice. The Israeli state, criminal in its setup and ruthlessly oppressive ever since, is now nonetheless a fact. Its going nowhere. In an ideal World, a one-state solution would be best. A democratic Country called Israel-Palestine/Palestine-Israel where all people of all faiths and ethnicity live as one. But in reality there's not much chance of this succeeding. So the next best thing would be a two-state solution. The land recently taken by the Israelis to be given back and a border agreed upon. The Oslo accord settled upon this but unfortunately its gone to pot since. It is very regrettable that Hamas took over from the PLO but to be honest I'm not surprised such a fanatic movement sprung out of the decades of occupation and apartheid. It was almost inevitable.

Anyway, that would be my solution but its been put back years by the killing of the last few weeks and one wonders if it will ever come to pass.

 

It's a nightmare. The fact is, despite the diaspora, there have always been Jews living (in greater and lesser numbers) in what is now Israel. And of course their genetic heritage is largely identical to their Palestinian neighbours (the main differences stem from European women who were converted to Judaism over the centuries). It is religion which ultimately divides them, though as I said above and I think Willy has referred to, this is now just one element of land, dispossession, violence and identity.

Of course, the more anarchy and death there is in the region the better for Christians longing for the apocalypse and the second coming, because it fulfills some of their more bizarre prophecies.

One state solutions, two state solutions......**** knows, there are two plus millennia of ignorance, prejudice and idiocy to get over first.

 

You're right Stan but I'll just finish on this topic by adding to the above sentence "in peace and harmony for Centuries up until this settler state was created and the evictions began."

 

Understood.

I hope to be proved wrong mate, but sadly I doubt this topic will be finished in my lifetime.

 

Swords, you're not an Arab by any chance?

 

Of course not. Bloody hell.

BTW, got my driving licence photos today. What'd you think?

please log in to view this image

 

I have hesitated for a long time to reply to this debate, because I do not feel it is an appropriate subject for a board devoted to my beloved Rangers, and also because I am spending a lot of time going in and out of air-raid shelters, as Hamas rockets have continued to rain down on us until today. However, in view of the fact that so many misconceptions and lack of knowledge of the facts have been displayed, I feel the need to respond.

1. Like all Israelis, I am deeply saddened and troubled by the loss of life and injuries on both sides.
2. Whilst Israel goes out of its way to avoid civilian casualties, Hamas goes out of its way to cause as much death and destruction as possible on both sides. To quote Colonel Richard Kemp, who was the Commander of British Forces in Afghanistan "Israelis use the most sophisticated and comprehensive means of avoiding civilian casualties yet employed by any army in the world"
3. The only reasons that there have not been thousands of Israeli deaths and injuries in the past 3 weeks is the fact that Israel has air raid shelters and, most importantly, the "Iron Dome " defence system, which has knocked out hundreds of rockets fired from Gaza with the intent of killing as many people as possible(including the 1.5 million Palestinian Arabs who live in Israel!)
4. Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005 and since then, almost daily, the Hamas terrorists have been firing rockets into Israel. They have spent all the billions of dollars that they have received in aid on weapons and building "terror tunnels" that lead into Israel so that they can massacre Jews. The aim of this war is to destroy the vast stock of rockets and tunnels.
5. This is a war started by Hamas and the reason is very simple- they want to destroy the State of Israel! Hamas proudly proclaims in its Charter "Final resurrection will not come until Muslims fight the Jews and the very trees call out" There is a Jew hiding behind me. Come and kill him"
6. If the Palestinians laid down their arms, there would be peace. If the Israelis laid down their arms, Israel would not exist as the people would be wiped out.

 

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Thanks for posting Mate. I'm not going to comment as I agree that this is not the correct forum for this debate but I'm glad to have had another view to help me form my own views.

Keep safe - you and all in your neck of the woods.

 

Stay safe Israel, but I would be grateful if you could be explicit about where the misconceptions on this thread are. Also, any subject is permissible on here as long as it is discussed within the rues of the forum.

What past of Jerusalem do you live in? As I am sure you know, the international community regards Israel's annexation of East Jerusalem as illegal. Perhaps if you had not done this you would not be facing the risk of Hamas rockets now.

Your points in turn:

1. The losses are highly disproportionate 10s on the Israeli side, over a thousand in Gaza. I don't believe you can speak for ALL Israeli's any more than I can speak for ALL British, though I'm sure your sadness is sincere.

2. You are not doing a very good job if you are trying to avoid civilian casualties

3. The disproportionate casualties are due to lack of defences similar to Israel's in Gaza, a tiny overpopulated area. I know Israel claims to give warnings before it bombs hospitals and schools but there is nowhere for Gazans to hide. Civilian casualties are inevitable, no matter how much you regret them

4. Yes they are fanatics. They have been turned into fanatics by decades of injustice.

5. Yes it is a war. And many posters have noted the extremism of Hamas, and how they are virtually impossible to negotiate with. Why have you ended up with such an opponent? Surely partly due to your Government and military actions since 1948.

6. Surely the Israelis of all people should understand the desire for a viable home that the Palestinians are fighting for? Believe me, I think its a complete disaster that they are now represented by religious maniacs, but the state of Israel has more than its own share of responsibility for creating this situation.

I think the theme of this thread is sadness and frustration that none of us can see any improvement on the horizon. Arguing about right and right is now meaningless, the willingness to compromise and discuss is absent on both sides, and we all have the right to discuss it.

Once again, stay safe.

 

Swords, I normally wouldn't get involved in a political debate like this but to date, I agree with every single word you have stated on this thread.

It is an absolute disgrace what is being done to the innocent Palestinian people and shame on the Western world for standing by and allowing it to happen.

As for Israel, all I can say is, they are the last country that should be doing this to another people after what happened to the Jewish people in WW2. Shame on Israel. The world will never forgive them for this.

 

See my answers below.

 

Sadly Swords your solution won't and can't work. To realise why just take a look at a world map and exactly where the West Bank is and where the Gaza Strip is. The answer should be pretty obvious.

 

Swords, your picture of an Arab is a little racist I think.

 

Israelranger, I hope you and your family stay safe in this stupid war!.

 

Thanks NY and thanks also to sb_73 for your good wishes.

 

Having lived and worked in Lebanon, Israel and Syria for two years, I believe I have a reasonable grasp on the multi dimensional problem that is the Middle East. Both sides have legitimate claims to the land but an important point that seems to have been overlooked is the detrimental decision/promise made by the British Government after WW2 to the Jewish community to establish a country for them on land that was occupied by more than just Jewish people. Unfortunately this decision was based on emotion rather than rational and the legacy of this decision is the problems we have today.
I think the Palestinian people do not deserve to be treated like dogs on land that they also have a legitimate claim to. Forcing them to live behind high security fences in a constant state of barricade is inhumane and can only lead to one outcome. The Israeli army are shooting at fish in a barrel. The appalling decision by the Israeli Government to continue its settlement building in the west bank is scandalous as this land was given to the Palestinian people by Jordan. It is another example of the Israeli policy of land grabbing with other example being the Golan Heights (land owned by Lebanon and Syria) and the village of Ghajjar. With political, financial and military backing from the US, the Israeli government and its people have acted like they are over and above the law. The continued stance of not allowing Palestinian refugees living in Lebanon, Syria and Jordan to return to their country will always ensure a hatred that won't be resolved around a negotiation table.
In saying all of this, I worked closely with Israeli military and diplomatic officials who are basically fatigued. Israel is a country that is basically always on alert and most people in Israel live their lives in fear of what may be around the corner. I met some wonderful people who are simply mentally exhausted by the constant wars. I can't imagine it is a nice way to live your life.