Anyone got maps of the Arab nations that shows the changing lines over the last 2000 years and better still who changed them and what effect it had on the populations within each set of lines? I'm not being smart arsed I'm genuinely curious. Suppose I could go research it but can't be arsed sifting through the political revisionist bullshit I'm bound to have to wade through #cannolongerbearsedtobeahistorian
Now you are truly being either thick or deliberately limited. I asked you to look at the history of the diaspora i.e. how it came about and how it was effected. Yet you still cling to the contention that the majority of Jews remained and converted to islam. So if you can't be bothered to look at what the Romans did then have a look at the mass forced migrations that Stalin visited on ethnic groups with the USSR - there's nothing new under the sun. Your genetic argument is flawed. Now nobody said that returning Jews had the right to "turf-out" Palestinians. I certainly didn't. More than once I have clearly stated that the post-WW2 UN idea was that the numbers returning would be absorbed into the existing population. Now you scream they have no right yet I'll bet that you would defend the right of economic migrants to settle where they will - sounds hypocritical to me. That people of different faiths - or even denominations within faiths will disagree over the righteousness of their beliefs is no surprise. Fundamental to the Jewish faith is the idea that the 12 tribes of Israel were given the land now called Palestine. It is not surprising therefore that the view of the position of the people of Gaza is very different from that of people who do not believe in God's grant. Are you responsible for the actions of your forebears? Some would say yes. Some would go further a demand that you either make a public apology for what your forebears did and or make reperations. So I presume some Native Americans would demand that you leave their land and return to either Europe or Africa - if only because you are not American. As for the English then please define what you mean by that term. Why not demand that all the Irish go home? But I caution that your genetic based argument here is a red-herring. If a Brit is a Brit because he's a Brit, the a Jew is a Jew - no matter where the diaspora washed up his forbears.
There are obviously varying opinions on this inflammatory subject. It's one I've had a complete turnaround on, I used to think Palestinians were all terrorists. Until the age of the internet and information, that was the media's doing. We can all have our opinions based on what we have been exposed to over the decades, but in the end our opinions are probably worthless, mine included. I urge anyone who is interested to actually listen to someone who has the history the experience and the knowledge. An Israeli, a former IDF soldier, his father a general, his grandfather involved in the creation of Israel. Miko Peled's opinions and ideas are worth 1 million times what ours are. He's lived the life has the history and his family even suffered death through a suicide bombing, they have been through it all. It's hard to take anyone on here serious when they go against what he says given it's his country, given he served in the IDF, knows the laws, sees what happened. Having a father as a general I am sure he has had access to the correct information. So any disagreement with him from armchair historians living in other countries is ridiculous. Go on, get a free education, the guy is right, he has the credentials the knowledge the truth.
http://mikopeled.com/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miko_Peled http://www.amazon.com/The-Generals-Son-Journey-Palestine/dp/193598215X https://www.facebook.com/pages/Miko-Peled/141707482508655 I posted this before, here it is again. Watch it and listen to what he has to say. Makes a whole lot of sense. [video=youtube;etXAm-OylQQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=etXAm-OylQQ[/video]
wouldnt take long to find the son of a Hamas terrorist stand up for Israeli's. No side is better or worse than the other. If one side stops, the other will start it up again.... as has happened on every single occasion.
Quite possible the biggest pile of **** you have come up with in recent times. So because hes all 'all hail the Palestinians' hes right. No arguments, no debate tobe had. We cannot question him. But.... what if he said the opposite. would you dismiss it out of hand?
For every Israeli who supports palestine, theirs an Palestinian who supports Israel and condems the 1000s of rockets fired over the boarder. I doubt the general population of both sides want it to carry on but Hamas continue to fire rockets and israel will always retaliate with force. their force is far superior and thus will always cause more harm to the palestinians than they will to Israel. Its a bit like poking a lion with a stick and then wondering why it ripped you to shreds. From the other POV its like squishing a spider that runs across your floor. Much better ways to deal with it but the easiest option is to destroy it.
More like the neighbours annexing half your garden, so you chuck a stone at their greenhouse....... and they come back over the fence they built and kill your entire family.
Perhaps its more like being stuck with a Conservative government who you know will do nothing in your best interests. Only difference is that Hamas traps you in the firing-line.
I will make the effort later after work Sisu but just to clarify one point. So I'll be watching first person accounts and opinions from a protagonist or protagonists yes? You know the rules on how you treat such information and the further verification procedures that need to be carried out obviously. His account is where you start not where you end yes? It really would help by the way if you didn't preface every declaration of another persons opinion that you've linked or copied and pasted with "you're an idiot/twat/sheep/brainwashed if you don't believe agree with this/me" that's not debate that's dictation. As I suggest, you're supposed to test every account, every document you read and ask yourself what is the motivation for this account being given, for this document to be published, who paid for these statistics to be gathered ...etc etc Here I'll start you on pre GCSE checklists : Who? Why? When? Utility? Reliability? Adequacy? Try going back and really applying even these very simple questions to each piece you read and decide is the absolute truth that must be handed down to us intellectual midgets. Just a little armchair historian advice eh?
works both ways. if israel didnt have their defence force, we would all be commentating on the middle east countries attacking israel.
I had quite strong views on Israel and how they dealt with the Palestinians up until I actually visited Israel. Firstly you notice that lots of the regular people don't want war to be ongoing and aren't trying to eliminate the Palestinians. Secondly you get to feel what it's like to have soldiers marching the streets, go through metal detectors to get into the shopping centre etc etc.... You feel what it's like to be expecting a war to kick off at any moment. I think it's a very complicated issue and neither side are right or wrong. It's about trying to find some sort of middle ground. Which is difficult for Israel whilst surrounded by nations intent on wiping them off the face of the planet and difficult for Palestine when Israel can so heavy handedly deal with them and use tactics such as the settlements. No one side is in the right. I'd be interested to know if any of you who have such strong views on the subject have ever actually been out there?
No basing this on science and history instead of just what I want to believe. If you don't believe me- look it up! A large percentage of Palestinians in the territories were displaced after the war- forced out of their homes- put into exile and never allowed to return- their lands taken from them and given to White Europeans who wanted to settle in this new land. This is far different than simple migration where migrants come and either rent or buy homes. This is strangers coming from overseas- taking your house and forcing you to leave. The Islamic nations started the war- and were certainly in the wrong for this- however, Israel totally took advantage of this and has been causing all sorts of atrocities since. I do not believe for one moment two wrongs make a right- or one wrong justifies another. Using religion to back up one group persecuting another has been done many times throughout history and is never acceptable. Is it ISIS's right to castrate women against their will in Iraq today? It's their religious belief. Is the KKK right to treat blacks as inferior because that was their religious belief. There are a lot of holy sites for Muslims in Jewish held territory- does that mean they are right in wanting Israel destroyed? Using religion to back up atrocities is never just. I fully back 100% the Jewish people's right to be Jewish- however I 100% reject theirs- or people of any other religion justifying atrocities based on their religious doctrine. Then we all deserve to die. Britain committed many atrocities around the world from the 17th to 20th centuries... some would say we still do. If our ancestors weren't soldiers- they probably profited from those atrocities. We're all murderers or acomplices to murderers. Certainly our Saxon ancestors killed plenty of ancient Brits. We all have at least one murderer in our ancestry. Then that is a different argument- that is that one religion has priority treatment over another in a region- something which I categorically refute. I don't see any religion being superior and being allowed precedence over another. The lands are holy to the Jews-but also Xians and Muslims.
I wouldn't deny anyone the right to defend themselves... But their recent actions, blowing up kids on a Beach? A School with Women and Children, etc.. that's their right? They claim to have great inteligence, most advanced weapons in the world, supplied to them by the US and most likely the UK too, and yet their weapons "go off target?" Don't buy that for a minute! "Oh.. but they ring them in advance and tell them to leave...." Leave where exactly, seen the pics of Gaza lately? there's quite of of rubble, not much else to seek shelter in.. War Crimes, Genocide, what they are doing, its not far off that IMHO.
Still excusing one side and defending the other. Who fired first? On this occasion and to begin with? I seem to recall it wasnt israel. Maybe the Palestinians should have a word with hamas?
They'd be given the exact co-ordinates of that building and told precisely what it was being used for by the UN. What they're doing in Gaza is akin to ethnic cleansing and the World is just watching on while the inhabitants, who are being denied the right to leave, are being slaughtered. It's an absolute disgrace and should signal the end of the impunity seemingly given to Israel when it comes to the Palestinians, as they're as much of a 'Rogue State' as Iraq ever were............but whilst Capitol Hill continues to be heavily influenced by American Jews, it's unlikely to change in our lifetimes....
Yes tobes but maybe if hamas were not using these safe zones to launch attacks and store weapons israel wouldn't target them. The last conflict had hamas in tunnels under hospitals.
