Post Holocaust, the Jews that were left voiced a strong desire to be allowed to return to their historic lands in what now is Israel. The UK had already been tasked by the UN to administer Palestine and oversee the controlled return of the Jews. It should be noted that the UK did not "kick out a bunch of Arabs" to facilitate the return of the Jews. As with immigration into the UK today, it was thought that the Jews would be assimilated into the resident population. If there was any bias as far as the UK admin was concerned then it tended to be in favour of the Arabs (perhaps in acknowledgement of us selling them out after WW1) eg the UK trained and equipped the whole Jordanian Army! After the activities of the Jewish terrorist groups (Irgun, etc.) culminating in the bombing of the King David Hotel which finally caused us to relinquish our Administration, I doubt that we would consider that the Israelis were friendly towards us or that we owed them anything. However attitudes changed when Israel was threatened with extinction (a very real possibility) by all of the countries surrounding it. If the European nations needed a greater reason for siding with Israel then the fact that it had acquired nuclear weaponry provided such a reason. But let's be brutally honest. None of the Middle East states truly give a damn about the Palestinians or they would have done something about it either physically or by proxy. History shows that they haven't. Where are the backers of Hamas these days? Where are the states who are willing to confront Israel on behalf of the Palestinians? They can threaten their own countries with terror based conflict but they won't stand and fight for their "brother Muslims - the Palestinians". The Arabs have their own dirty fingers in this particular pie and cannot be absolved. Its just not as simple as some insist and truth is at a minimum.
Yeah... and I think the people that live in the house I grew up in now would have a problem if I returned and said "Get Out, this was historically my house... " Worse- what if I went to a house my grandparents used to live in- one I'd never lived in myself. The returning Jews were genetically more "European" than "Middle-Eastern." The majority of their ancestors were from European stock- not the Middle East. What was essentially created when Israel formed was a European colony of a specific religion that was not the mainstream one of Europe. They tried the physically thing and lost. It's basically a lost cause- as long as the US (who spend half the world's military spending), and their allies (who make up most of the next 25% of world military spending) back Israel- none of the arab states stand a chance at freeing Palestine (or more maliciously destroying Israel). Quite frankly, Israel should never have been created. Now that it has however, we can't just allow it to be dismantled. The current younger generations grew up there... and can't be blamed for their ancestors who returned there from Europe and America.
Think you're over simplifying the middle east and the Muslim religion Dave tbf, just as their are different denominations within Christianity there is in the Muslim faith, and those divisions would prevent a united front to defend Palestine. Also even if there was the west ensure that Israel have better weapons, more weapons, and just in case they have a nuclear deterrent, their can be no excuse imo for the crimes against humanity committed by Israel, and let's remember its sanctioned by the Israeli government not an extremist faction within the country, the UN, NATO, EU etc made sure Serbs, African etc leaders were held responsible and put on trial in The Haag for their actions yet every leader of Israeli get to play god with no consequences.
Why do you deliberately twist what I have said? I never said anything about returning Jews demanding lands that had historically been settled by their forebears and expelling Arab who now owned that land. Quite frankly none of the countries of the Middle East should have been created - they are all figments of international politics rather than established states. Therefore Isreal mere reflects the environment it was created in.
Another UN shelter whacked by the Israeli airforce, more dead women and children. 3rd UN shelter to be hit by Israel, they know where the nice juicy targets are, schools full of women and kids, of course we expect statement soon that "Hamas were operating out of the UN shelter" to be along shortly. Right after the UN voted on respecting international law, "guess who" was the only nation to vote no. While my own poxy Irish delegate abstained Nearly 700 dead, mostly civvies and most of them women and kids. WTF. Before those teens went missing there was for the first time for as long as I remember, real pressure on Israel. Now the lunatic right wing cowboy Netanyahoooo got his way, 20,000 troops sent into Palestine for what was a police matter and trashed the place. Still no evidence offered whatsoever, just that phone call with the kidnappers talking in Hebrew and gunshots. Yet as a direct result of that two weeks, that gag order and the stoking up by Netanyahu of this in that 2 weeks for war, 700 almost, Palestinians and 36 Israelis are dead. Can anyone seriously see what is going on here.? The above is facts, not that the BBC will run it but Netanyahooo had the press gagged so he could get the auld murdering war machine going, first he had to trash Palestine and provoke Hamas and that was after the IDF just shot two teenagers out of hand on the street. The footage for all to see The chronology of this is clear enough for anyone with half a brain or a rabid love for Israel that defies logic. Nothing to do with religion and everything to do with killing Palestinians for nothing, then trashing the place under a false pretext as they knew the teens were dead and then follow it up with invading and destroying thousands more homes, 6,000 last time, how many this time, more people no doubt forced out as refugees, more settlements to follow. When you just look at the facts it's f**ing laughable that anyone sees Israel's actions as legitimate in this whole deal since the peace talks were on are off their heads. A clear intent on having this invasion and never interested in peace, not while those right wing lunatics are in power. The Palestinian plight is in many ways tragically similar to that of the Native American Indians.
Don't think I am Page. IF the Muslim nations truly wanted to help the Palestinians they can do so with providing money, material and territory but they chose not to. Now I don't claim to have all the facts but I do know that if I had to live with the knowledge that that the states surrounding me want to destroy my state (covertly or otherwise) then it would have a major effect upon my thinking about how to deal with the problems that face me.
I was referring to the phrase about Jews returning to their historical land. There is no such thing as "historical right to a land". They had no right to that land- just as I have no right to go into the house that my grandparents once lived in and call it my own. Besides... The Palestinians are more closely related to the Jewish people of the bible who lived in that area. The white European Jews are genetically more European than middle eastern. Their ancestors moved to Europe- bred with the locals and once they had a sizable population- each other. The Palestinians of today, probably ARE the Jews from the bible. Most of them converted to Islam after the lands were conquered... because despite the Islamic overlords being relatively tolerant of other religions they offered financial incentives to follow Islam.
Dave re-writing history in saying that the Arab nations haven't militarily sought to support the Palestinians against Israel, lol. As has been pointed out David, that's a tad difficult to pursue head on when the Worlds super power is the Israelis wing man ffs. You do realise as well that the Israelis have used their systematic battering of the Palestinians as a proving ground for their latest military technologies don't you? Oh and then that's another reason why the UK 'abstains' whenever their latest atrocity is hauled before the UN vote - as British jobs and cash are on the line if their military industry hits the buffers....
question, take all this silly sidestepping detail , UN war crimes nonsense away (it won't ever happen). Take away all the bleeding heart wailing from over here in our nice safe viewing spot and lets Grant the wish. What exactly would happen if everyone including the Yanks withdrew any support from Israel? And I mean in terms of: A) Palestine B) Israel C) the surrounding Arab countries. D) the players that just abandoned Israel. I'm truly interested what people forsee in that scenario.....
Ill give it a bash "frank" Iran send troops to gaza and the west bank and a battle ensues. Israel agrees to talks and their blockade of gaza is lifted along with the settlements being dismantled. America goes into recession as the "american israelis" pull out of the country taking their wealth and military contracts. Israel goes about its business as none of the middle eastern countries will try to conquer it over their nuclear deterrent. Or it could just go boom and the israelis set off their nukes destroying iran / Syria etc. Leaving them to wipe out the Palestinians and take gaza and the west bank under their control.
There you go again!!! I never said that the returning Jews had any right to historical lands. I did say that it was assumed by the UN, the USA and UK that the numbers of those wishing to return would be controlled and that they would become assimilated into the population. Your statement about the ethnicity of the results of the Jewish diaspora and the ethnicity of todays Palestinians is laughable and shows little knowledge and even less understanding!
Well that depends. Did the new occupants come in and make you and your family slaves, drive you from the land and commit many crimes against you?
This. This is the route of the problem and it is so true. This feeling of entitlement. The same as the argies felt over the Falklands. You can't turf out current residents for historical rights to land dating years and years in the past. You can't heap more injustice on top of past injustices and try to make a happy scenario. The Jews should have been assimilated into all countries after the war as part of a concerted refugee/rehousing effort. The UN caved into the Zionist movement and just invented a country in the Middle East to dump all the Jews. Perhaps so we (Britain) and the rest of the world didn't have to deal with refugees etc. Ie we took the easy way out and the simplist scenario. Ie give the displaced Jews land which we will take from the Arabs!
World war 3 starts because some islamic states try to make good on their promise to destroy israel? I doubt peace would follow. Infact if the west abandoned israel it would leave them open. Sure some jews have immense wealth. So do some arabs. Immense to 99.99% of us anyway. And like i said. If society collapses, money becomes worthless. Theres no control.
No, it's based in science and research studies done on the issue instead of some romanticised idea that the Jews are returning home to their homeland. You don't have to look far to see the references... even Wikipedia has it: The Palestinians are genetically more similar to the Jews that remained in the area than the Jews that went to Europe are. There are lots of genealogies that show that the Jews in Europe bred with Europeans and not exclusively with themselves. When the Islamic nation took over what is now Israel- they allowed families to continue any religion that they currently had- but there was a huge tax increase for being Jewish or Christian. Rather than pay taxes the Palestinians converted by and large to Islam rather than stay Jewish. And they are, mainly Islamic to this day. Some stayed Jewish (and there were Jews living in Palestine in the 1940's) but most were muslim... some stayed Christian...
It didn't turn out to be the easy scenario though....of all the imperial countries line drawing feckups, this was perhaps the worst....Should have given them New York State.
We did ... first there was irish ways and irish laws and then england invaded and sent planters to take the land from the irish people. 800 years of strife and struggle and being second class citizens in their own country but after many a failed rebellion eventually ireland was back in irish hands albeit without 6 counties of ulster. And by the looks of things up there in the north a united ireland is closer than ever with the huge increase In Nationalist population and decrease in unionists. If I live to the average age for life expectancy in ireland I suspect ill be living in a united ireland , just as it was historically before invasion.
