Surely you could find newer outrages committed by Israeli forces than 10 years ago Hash....like say yesterday? 2004? Kid was lucky then to just be strapped to a landrover: That year Palestinian factions were strapping bomb vests to their 13 year old kids and sending them into the Israelis forces. Now it's just Donkeys. Damn internet getting in the way of indoctrination eh?...always count on a donkey though, can't use a lap top.
It was the clearest pic is all. What about the sniper taking out a guy (unarmed) searching the rubble for his family? That was yesterday
What about loads of **** that happens all over the world? It depends upon what angle you view the same event. But it makes neither side totally right or totally wrong.
Humans, most are decent, some are nasty, those nasty ones make the rest of the world, at times, a **** hole to live in... Going onto what Hash mentioned, what angle does one have to see that incident to make it not look horrific? It appears he's injured, looking for friends and family in rubble and gets taken out? How can anyone from any side defend that? It's cold blooded Murder!
You are correct dave. If I blew up your house while you were out and then I waited until you returned and were searching the rubble for your family, if at that moment I shot you from a distance and killed you. It wouldnt be totally right but sure it wouldnt be totally wrong either. What the actual ****?
Hash, you don't have all the facts and neither do I. So let's play out another scenario: Surveillance has shown that the property has been used to store rockets. Warning had been given to the area for civilians to leave. The house/store (depending upon your viewpoint) was then hit. A man then returns and starts looking - for what we actually don't know. However, he is in a war zone and gets taken-out. It's ****, it's sad but its what happens! Both sides will find justifications for what they do. You only have to look back to The Troubles to see that in action.
Hopefully not the same surveillance/intelligence sources America and Britain used when searching for WMD's in Iraq. We all know what happened there. Its easy for the oppressor to claim they had intelligence of whatever they want to justify their actions. You mention Northern Ireland , Look at Bloody Sunday. Innocents murdered under the falsehood of they fired shots at the army. The truth finally emerged that no one was armed ergo couldnt have fired shots.
So how about all the innocent people killed by terrorists on both sides in Northern Ireland? Now fortunately I've never been involved in anything like Bloody Sunday but it's all too easy to see how it could have come about. But whatever happened there does not provide a justification for what subsequently transpired. It's the same in Gaza there is no 100% right or wrong - hence no 100% truth.
What Israel is doing in Gaza is nothing sort of genocide. They've been the subject of more broken UN resolutions than any other country on the planet, but they continually get away with their systematic abuse of the Palestinians and their land grabbing antics, due to their US Jewish power base and their apparent eagerness to play both the race and the victim card. Disgraceful nation of racist bigots imo.
That's the one I thought you were posting about originally when I saw Israeli sniper until I read on Hash. That's why I was confused at you not using it as a recent example if you know what I mean. So in General not at Hash: Look, I'm going to regret this with giant S bombs coming my way but all of these stories from both sides, while horrific are now merely propaganda opportunities for the opposing sides. Both sides, (and the sides within sides) decided a long time ago it was acceptable to use civillians and their civilian locations as targets and assets. It is simply a hypocritical PR exercise to point to the opposing acts of horror while justifying your own. To call it a war when you want and deny it when it lends legitimacy to the enemies position. So then it becomes an act of terrorism. It's a game albeit a bloody one. So putring propaganda and pretence that either side gives a stuff about civillians placed to one side? it's now reduced to a matter of intransigence of position and strategy in obtaining that position. While the hardliners on both sides refuse to accept the recognition that the other should even exist and state as a central aim the destruction of the other; the international community and those willing to compromise from within; are relegated to hand wringing bystanders. While the doves in each camp are unwilling to denounce and remove their own hawks they ensure their own victimisation. No whining from us will change it. Tactically what Israel is attempting at the moment is sound. It sees its direct enemy in its weakest position ever, the traditional support it needed from the neighbouring Arab states is weakened by internal struggles and regime changes (Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iran) that even resulted in actual hostility towards Hamas now rather than support. In the short term they have bigger problems to deal with than Israel. Palestine is on its own. (Theres an argument it always was but sure....) Israel can now try and damage Hamas fatally. The only risk is being an international pariah and lets be honest those that hate Israel do so already and will never change, those that support them are now anchored to them whether they like it or not so Israel is not concerned with how it looks to what it believed is a largely anti Semitic world. With the emergence of ISIS in Syria/Iraq, Israel has the future fear of a possible new United Arab world looking for their destruction but the short term opportunity of Arab fear of its self, increased disunity and even a need from the likes of Iran for western cooperation to contain this extreme Islamic front popping up on its border. In essence Iran and the US played the game of destabilising its neighbours too well. Its a gamble that if works might actually lead to greater stability within Palestine later but if not, it's the status quo with a greatly weakened enemy at the negotiating table. Hamas now only has the PR strategy (the rockets are a bloody but futile gesture) that enough pictures of babies dying pushes the Israeli doves to restrain their hawks before Hamas are wounded fatally. We may hate the increase in suffering on one or both sides but let's be real here, after the first baby was killed by each side decades ago and everyone that wanted to, both inside and outside still picked a flag to wave, you gave your tacit approval of all the baby deaths from then on. You can't keep pointing and saying "how terrible" if your own flag is drenched in civilian blood. If you didn't pick a flag then your simply a powerless horrified bystander waiting for it to be more expedient not to kill babies than to kill babies. There's nothing anyone can do to force a resolution other than nuke the entire area and put them all out of their misery. Coming from a conflict area that has for the moment got past the murdering each others babies stage I'd shy away from that possible solution. There's always possibility among the madness.
No it won't. And thats coming from a fenian(bastard) depending on your view point. One civilian death in any conflict is one too many. Manchester, Guildford, Birmingham, Enniskillen and many many more should never have happened. It came to late for all the innocent victims but towards the end the IRA realised they were losing support for killing civilians and their bombing campaign turned to causing as much financial damage as possible rather than indiscriminate blowing the **** out of everything and everyone. As far as the "security services" as targets, well the British army were sent in as peacekeepers but quickly got used by Unionist power brokers at the time to keep nationalists down. The British army have a horrendous record of murdering innocents including unarmed children in Northern Ireland. This isnt an anti Brit army rant either. Luv seems a good guy , Dev off the celtic board another and I have dealings with an raf dog handler sourcing him good dogs. Good points Frank there is **** all any of us can do from here but its the zionist media the bbc , sky news , our own rte if they reported the facts people would see whats going on and make their own mind up. But when the media show bias to one side everyone gets hot under the collar myself included. Take RTE today ... "people run for cover in Tel Aviv airport as the rockets reign in, its reported at least one landed close to the airport. " HOW CLOSE IS CLOSE ? "In Gaza Israeli forces killed 30 "militants" over night bringing the death toll to over 600" Over 600 what ? Militants ? Now because we now know from other sources besides the mainstream media that the vast majority were women and children and disabled people in a hospital
I bet even Hitler thought he was the good guy! I'm sure he realised a lot of what he did was wrong but justified it with "the ends justify the means." That said... I think a lot of what Israel does is wrong- but I can see why they do it and how they justify it- they're not evil people, they just see things in a very different way from us having had a very different history to us over the last 60 years. I'm sure they think what they're doing is right. The only people who are truly evil on this planet are Man Utd fans and Putin's followers!
Hash, you have to understand that in all these conflicts, civilian deaths are a vital tool - just as much heavy weaponry. Somewhere in Israel a propaganda merchant is sitting waiting for a Palestinian rocket to wipe-out 5+ Israelis just for the 'media-milage' that can be gained! All sides are manipulating us. You say the Army were sent in as peacemakers but got manipulated by the Unionists. You may be right but I hear a very different tale regarding the relationship between the Army and the Nationalists. Now you may be right, or they may be right or more likely both may be right but you have to accept that everybody involved has spun, re-spun and spun again the details to suit themselves. It's the same in Gaza. The people we really can't trust are the media who keep telling us that they are bringing us the truth.
Agree with all of that Tobes,bar the last line. Despite being surrounded by propaganda from childhood there are a great many Israeli's who are decent human beings. People who will go over the border into Gaza or the West Bank and help Palestinians rebuild what has been destroyed. People who know they will be castigated for their actions on their return to Israel. People who know this is genocide in action. Its the Israeli establishment and their paymasters who are responsible for this carnage.
It was a generalisation that referred to the State and it's awful politics mate, apologies if it read otherwise
Wekl. At least if those two are at it for now. The Islam extremists are more focused on Israel at the moment which means I can feel slightly safer on the tube in London this weekend. #alwayslookonthebrightside
"Kid was lucky then to just be strapped to a landrover" At least I know what you are Frank, calling people who criticise Israel a Nazi, now this disgusting attitude. You call yourself a historian, never have I met one with such poor understanding of history or such a lack of accuracy, let alone your illogical rant when someone disagrees with you. Folks, note, I never had isse with Frank nor he with me till I criticised Israel, he called me a nazi and has been an ass ever since. It's obvious this f**ing idiot is one of those apologists who scream nazi because well, facts do not back up his argument and never will so just play the "nazi" card. Typical apologist tactic. Richard Goldstone, someone who actually has some validity Frank, said in his UN report that there was NO evidence of human shields being used except by Israel But here's the clincher, you see a picture of a Palestinian being used as a human shield and instead of condemning such actions you try justify them by referring to other things rather than address the actual thing put in front of you, instead you use the "Palestinians are worse" tactic. I suspect you have more "racial" problems than you accuse me of lad, calling me a nazi when I would never condone any such actions by Palestinians or Israelis or anyone, I am a father. You must never of had had kids to think like that or a heart for that matter. You f**ing bottom feeding f**pig. Your comments show more than you want to, that Palestinian lives are worth less than Israeli ones but you'll never admit to your disgusting beliefs on here I know that.
FAO MITO Oi f**face, you threaten to edit my comments if I mention your name on posts, so what the f** are you at hypocrite?
