Yes Leo, it's very easy to be generous with someone else's land. I admit that a long term settlement in Germany would have been very difficult for Jewish people - because so much horror had happened there - maybe America would have been a better solution if the Americans felt so generous. As for their ethnic origins being suited to that area, are you not forgetting that they had been in Europe for nearly a thousand years before the holocaust ? Or are you classifying Karl Marx, Rosa Luxembourg or Albert Einstein as Asiatic ? However, I agree that they have a historic connection to the area - but not the exclusive right which they have subsequently assumed. I can't help comparing the Jewish question after World War 2 with the destiny of the Gypsies ( a million of whom lived in Germany prior to 1939) wiped out in the holocaust - still homeless and still despised.
Happened to be in Chateauroux on Wednesday. Most towns of any size here have well equipped sites for Gypsies usually on the outskirts and there are fairly strong rules about cleanliness and storing rubbish on the site. There is electricity, water and sanitation provided on the sites all paid for by the population. On Wednesday less than a mile from the site, which was empty, a camp had been set up in the grounds of a hotel and restaurant alongside the main road into the town. Another case I think of people failing to do much for their image
i can't disagree with that either. But the question is...is being Jewish a religion or a race. If it's a religion, there's no reason on earth why there should be a Jewish state, but as a race, there's no reason why they shouldn't. When you think of the vastness of the Arab states, and the tiny space Israel takes up, nestled in with them, it does seem a little unfair (major understatement) that nobody wants them there. It actually is utterly ridiculous! But that's racial hatred for you! The point is also that the Palestinians are simply a pawn for the wider Arab states in as much as, if they really wanted the Palestinians to have a home (for the first time in their history) they would give them some land. They don't. Why? Because they don't want to stop until Israel is no more. Yes, the West Bank settlers are wrong, i agree, but this is the third incarnation of Israel as a state, would it be so terrible to just let it be? Sadly, it would seem there are many that think it would.
This is not really the point Frenchie. Yes, some Gypsies do give others a bad name but this does not alter what I was trying to say. Namely that the Gypsies were the second great victims of the holocaust (numerically) and the greatest victims in terms of the percentage who died. Mostly they did not reach the concentration camps because they were a rural population and were mostly murdered on the spot. There has never been any international recognition of this - not one penny awarded to one Gypsy in compensation - even Germany did not recognise this as a form of ethnic cleansing until the 1990s. Even when the holocaust memorial was opened in New York the American Jewish lobby did not want to recognise that they did not have a monopoly on suffering - according to them the holocaust was a purely Jewish affair even though the German gypsies were effectively wiped out - as were nearly all Jehova's Witnesses, Mormons, Freemasons and Quakers (yes - there were Quakers in Germany once).
I do not want to take Israel away H - although I do not recognise their historical right to this land, other than to say that it has been a homeland for Jewish people since 1945 and so they should be allowed to stay there. Unfortunately though we are not just talking about a strip of land here - but also about the capital Jerusalem which is the third holiest city in Islam.
I don't think it's fair to say that Gypsies weren't recognised as a group of people that suffered during the holocaust and i've never heard a Jewish person say they have a 'monopoly' on suffering, nor would any Jewish person take away the other groups that suffered, the Poles, the Homosexuals, etc etc. However, it is right to say that the Jewish people did not just suffer between 1939 and 1945. They have been hounded and attacked through thousands of years, and will continue to be so. Sad for such a small population. In this country there is a massive 250,000 Jews..that's it! Just 250,000. Yet this very small group of people find themselves subjected to racism and hatred, especially at times like these. Israel has been a homeland for Jewish people for centuries. Jewish people didn't arrive in Israel in 1945, many Jewish families have been there for centuries and as i say, this isn't the first incarnation of the state of Israel. However, there has never been a Palestinian state. That's not to say there shouldn't be, but it doesn't have to be there! Meanwhile, as for Jerusalem, when i lived in Israel in the '80s, the four sections of Jerusalem lived in peace. In fact, throughout history, there has always been long periods of peace in Jerusalem. But for a very small minority, it would still be that way. And by the way, it is the third holiest city to Islam, but the most holy place to Jews...who has the right to say that Jewish people therefore should be elsewhere? They should go back to sharing the city as they did before, it worked. (sorry for the ramble, i really should read back occasionally! lol)
I was purely picking up on a few points mentioned above Cologne, and comparing how the Gypsies here actually get reasonably good treatment when you look at the way they are looked on in some other countries. Of course when they start bringing scrap metal onto a piece of green common land and trashing the area people will get upset, in the same way that people get upset when they are pushed out of the area that they live in to provide homes for a different set of people. In England I was friendly with a teacher who had the job of going to the official camp sites and educating the children. That worked quite well as the families tended to stay on the same site for several years at a time, but did not wish to become integrated with the community. The problem though was the children who were sent to the village schools for two weeks, then they moved on again. Although there is little to argue with over historical facts, even when nations try to sweep them under the carpet, it probably needs to be left behind now in my opinion, and as Aberdeen states education of the young is the only way forward. This will take many years and fall down from time to time, but unless children are taught to live alongside their neighbours, and understand that they might have different beliefs, but are basically the same as them, then the hatred will continue. Hamas does not seem to have many friends on this board, but the whole thread was started because of the bit that Yorkie found. Here we are now still prepared to discuss it without coming to blows. Maybe we should separate Hamas from the ordinary Palestinian, in the same way that many Israelis do not support the taking of lands should be separated from those who do.
Unfortunately, children tend to learn their social mores at home and via their wider family- so any 'education' really either has to include the adults, with a greater risk of failure, or ...what? I hesitate to suggest the Australian 'answer' of removing them from their families for 're-education'....
Not really - apart from taking German land as "punishment" there is nowhere on earth you could create a state without annoying the people there. So not easy but necessary - unless you disagree with a state for the Jewish people. There is a lot of land in the Middle East and relatively few people and it has a connexion historically so "best fit" Can you untwine Jewish race/religion. Are not Jews a "people" with a common belief? Given centuries of hatred is it really not a good idea to have created a state where those who wanted to could go safely? I think it is mainly Arabs H who do not want them there - not "nobody wants them there" I think understandably Jews have a bit of a "bunker" mentality - "us against the world". In fact they like most other peoples who move in largish numbers to other countries and then maintain a separate identity instead of being assimilated into the population become a target for certain types of people - those same people who now are hostile to east European immigration into western Europe. Agree on Jerusalem - important to Jews, Muslims and Christians - International City status like the Vatican makes sense. Hamas 's actions suggest they are not interested in winning friends or influencing people. Yes - Yorkie started this and then bu**ered off"
This rather begs the question 'who are the educators' and who educates them. True dialogue between cultures can only start from the idea of equality - sorry no, not equality but rather the 'uniqueness' of cultures and people, because, as we know, 'uniqueness' allows for no comparison. Had Islam never existed as a World religion Western medicine and alchemy would have been stuck in the middle ages, the benefits of astronomy would not have reached us - and we would have no alphabet (not to mention some of the finest architecture on the Iberian peninsula). Jewish intellectual life enriched European culture for centuries - and Germany, in particular, is a lot poorer without it. All cultures and nations have taken their role in enriching our culture in their own 'unique' way - yet we still think in hierarchical ways and as long as that is the case there can be no everlasting peace.
Steady on there! Our alphabet has its roots in the Semitic alphabet, which predates Islam by around 2300 years, and arrived here via a circuitous route involving Greeks, Romans and Irish - so why give Islam the credit? As for the other claims - it's probably no small coincidence that, when Islam overran Christian Egypt, the library at Alexandria was found to contain all the scientific knowledge they needed in the works of the Ancient Greeks...
BB. After the fall of the Roman Empire we have the Arabs to thank that the medicinal knowledge of the ancient World survived. During the middle ages the Arabs had the best physicists and alchemists and the medical encyclopedia of the Moorish doctor Avicenna was the most respected work on medicine until well into the 17th Century. How the Arab world came by this knowledge is not important to me - but rather how they used it and spread this knowledge. My goal was not to extoll the virtues of Islam but rather to emphasize that no one culture has a monopoly on either morals, learning or culture, despite what the Western neo liberalist World view would have us believe.
Cologne - are you not mixing Arab and Islam and trying to infer they are the same? In ancient times they certainly were not and even today there are groups of Arabs that are not Muslim - although I cannot see them surviving much longer under some of the new regimes...
One last question from me. Are the Israelis and Palestinians throwing rocks at each other ? I think the answer is no to that one. Apart from the U.S.A. Germany is the second highest financial sponsor of the state of Israel - not surprisingly any criticism of Israel here is seen as anti semitism. Where do all these weapons come from ? The leading exporters of weaponry worldwide are Germany, the U.S.A., Great Britain and Russia - 3 of those countries being also amongst the most 'moralizing' nations Worldwide. Where is the call for banning such exports on here ? Because without them none of this killing could occur. If Israeli tanks are being paid for with American or German money , being made somewhere else (Britain ?) and are driving on oil from where ? Then maybe there is time for a lot of soul searching elsewhere other than in Palestine.
No, I don't think I'm mixing them up - the Moorish empire - responsible for the medicinal advances I referred to was Moslem.
Cologne - I don't know whether you are looking some of this up as we go along but if not you have an amazing knowledge of the last 2000 years or more. I enjoy reading a lot of what you say and find this whole debate enthralling. I criticize the state of Israel though and am not one iota anti-semitic. I am a pacifist and do not believe people should try to resolve disputes by violent means - whether that is Hamas, Israel or their "sponsors". Unfortunately I am also a pragmatic realist and know that mankind has a violent undercurrent and will not turn to peace and negotiation - in my lifetime or any of our childrens, childrens' children etc I like all peoples and all religions; I cherish differences as it would be a boring world if we were all the same.
I've just got a fascination with the history of medicine Leo. The first books in history were those related to plants and their medicinal uses. Without the Arabs our medicine would have remained plant based - alchemy and the use of minerals being largely their contribution to this history. The Arabs have contributed enough to European history to be taken a little more seriously now. Unfortunately many on here have the idea that there is nothing more to Islam than Bhurkas and Jehad, whereas this religion has the right to be taken seriously on level terms with our own. Contrary to general belief it has also shown itself to be, historically, a tolerant religion, in as much as that in earlier times the only parts of Europe with complete freedom of worship were the Ottoman Empire and the Moorish occupation of Spain. Interestingly enough the Moors protected Jews in Spain from the Spanish inquisition - which is why there is a sizeable Jewish population in Morocco now. Proper dialogue with the Islamic World is needed and this cannot be conducted with the underlying belief of moral superiority which most westerners have. I too am a pacifist Leo. But I do not just blame those holding the guns - because behind them are industries making and exporting those weapons. Countries like ourselves, Germany, the Americans and Russians who between them produce most of the World's weaponry - yet preach the virtues of peace at the same time. Make them fight with swords and spears - make those who declare the wars lead their armies (like Richard Lionheart or Saladin) and there would be very much less of it.
I believe all religions are equally good - or rather equally bad. Unfortunately human beings appear to need to believe that some other force or power shapes or cares about their destiny. I agree with you too the Arabs have made a major contribution to our existing way of life ( in deference to you I will avoid calling it a civilisation). Finally on war I agree that the major part of the blame belongs to the most powerful countries. They have found over the years that it is easier to make profit from weapons, including those of mass destruction. They manufacture and use fear to make citizens continue to support vast wealth being squandered on armies and weapons. We HAVE to have this or that weapon as if we do not it will be used against us. How convenient then that the armaments industries in these countries continue to invest fortunes in developing and then selling those weapons to others. We are all indoctrinated into believing that they are necessary and that our armed forces are "good". How else do we get young kids to give up their lives and risk being maimed or killed ? So what do we do - we celebrate (with proper decorum of course) their injuries. We make heroes out of them - young men (mostly) who had little or no choice but to be blown apart for evil purpose. We cannot give them a real job so we slyly trick them into going into the armed forces. How often have I heard members of the armed forces glowing over the skills and trades they learnt. Well - wake up call - the government COULD take those same young people and put them into civilian training for peaceful purposes. That is why I hate Poppy Day. It is not because I do not wish to respect the tragedy of the young lives lost in war but because the government machine REQUIRES those deaths and maimings to justify their manufacture of weapons and abuse of young life. We make it all a big celebration and anyone who does not join in is treated almost as a traitor. I have been spat at for declining to buy a poppy and told I should go back to Russia!!! The money we spend on arms could be spent on research into diseases like cancer (close of course to my heart), for improving our countries health, education and infrastructure or even just technological advances to improve the lives of people. Rant over.
Lots of rambling thoughts here, not necessarily in any order, they are just my immediate thoughts in response to points made in the article and some new ideas of mine. There was comment made in response to something I wrote earlier regarding how far back do we have to go for a starting point. Islam is a young religion and there are many groups within it flexing their muscles, much in the same way Christianity did in the dark ages. There were people in Israel before Jews I do not dispute that but the claim Islam should be the rightful custodian is just wrong. How would members of the Catholic Christian faith react if Moslems started making moves on the Vatican? The reason Jerusalem is so holy to the Islamic people is Mohammed ascended to Heaven from there, although there is no record of him ever going near the city, while alive or after his body being taken there after his death. And I find it remarkably strange the acredited place of this ascension is the rock on Temple Mount. The followers of Judaism are often portrayed as a race, and it feels like it, although they are a people and any discriminatory behaviour is religious not racial discrimination. To be anti-Semitic is racial discrimination as this includes not only the Jewish people, but Palestinians, Lebanese, Hashemites and many other groups within the race. Following on from this I see a lot of indication that to be against Islam is seen as racial discrimination, which it most certainly is not; a Moroccan Arab who follows Islam is a very different person to a Filipino who just happens to follow the same faith. Judaism in its miriad forms (Sephardim, Ashkenazim, Mizrahim and the many smaller groups) tends to remain within its own communities for marriage, keeping the idea of a separate race alive in the eyes if gentiles; though these groups are very different entities. As is the way of the world the most driven (fanatical) have a lust for power and those at the top in Israel and on the Hamas side of things are not the most consiliatory types by their very natures. If Heaven forbid the arrangements were left to the common people I am sure something would be sorted out very quickly. I have to agree with the remarks about scientific advancement, which would never have happened with the limiting constraints of those who ran Christianity at the time and would certainly not happen under islam as it currently appears. Probably missed a bit and some of this may appear disjointed, but it is a collection of random musings.
