OT - NSFW - Ukraine carries out air strikes on own citizens

This is going to end in war. Not good.

 

Tash,
I've removed the link completely as I was greeted with some very dodgy stuff down the side panels on the landing page (appreciate you weren't to know as the video looked to be genuine..) .
Feel free to repost it in the Sexy Poll but we're not allowed to have links up which Google can effectively see (that aren't locked inside a sub forum) as it affects the rating for not606.
If you can find any other links (Reuters, BBC etc..) please pop them up here.

On Topic it's a bit sick the way Putin is gradually annexing land in the East... we've been there before with Hitler and the international community should grow a pair and stop pussy footing around with bullshit embargoes.
The bombing of the civillians, whilst tragic was probably a Russian set up stunt to try to curry favour with the West...

 

Have to disagree with you there ACS, (I am not saying Putin is'nt a sociopathic twat like all the others) buut ..

The Ukraine crisis has all the fingerprints of the Neocons all over it.. In much the same way has happened with Iran , Iraq, Libya, & Syria *...and Venuzeula recently ..And Chile, Cuba, Peru, Vietnam etc etc in the past.

*(Re Syria as way of example to Ukraine ... It has gone VERY quiet since Parliament,actually, did its job and stopped another illegal war
(plus the original evidence (the gas attack) has been soundly refuted (UN) as coming from Government troops)
(Assad still needs stringing up by his balls but he has needed that for 30 odd yrs ..Not just atm when it is convinient to US /Western interests or is a good place for regime change)

Ukraine currently has a neo-fascist government in charge (piggy backed in, on the initial crisis)

Crimea has, historically been Russian (since late18thC). Khrushchev assigned Crimea region, internally as an administrative 'thing' within the Soviet Union...to Ukraine (in the 50's i think)

Plus, One of the few (if not only, (I am unsure)) warm water ports the Russian Navy have is Sevastapol, and there is 'NO WAY' they where going to allow that to just ..drift off.. even if that is exactly what the Neocons wanted and hoped for.

Since the break up of the Soviet Union there has a been a slow , but continual, 'surrounding' of Russia by Western/US interests.. ...Western Ukraine is geographically Ukraine but culturally and population wise is very much Ukraine/Russian.

Since Crimea was seized..(Putin is a prick for how it was done etc etc..but even if fair monitored elections happened .Crimea would still vote to be Russian) But since that point there was a build up of forces on the Ukraine/Russian Border..then Putin pulled troops back (I think to defuse the situation slightly,when it looked as things might spin out of control)

I am not arguing at all that both sides are NOT equally bad atm..but eastern Ukraine is a bit like Northern Ireland was for the UK and Ireland ..all sorts of groups, doing all sorts of **** things to each other, and innocent ppl getting shafted.

Putin certainly isn't an Angel ...but if you look at recent geopolitical actions (the NSA/MI6 acting as a working Stasi, rendition, torture, regime change etc etc (the list goes on and on)) ..it is The US Neocons (supported by the UK and the west ..poodle-ing along afterwards) that are the real danger to world security.

Apologies for the slightly long ..non-funny reply..but this is one of the ...things that grinds my gears.

Interesting thread though..(even if not exactly footie based)

 

I'm all for differing opinions fella.

Having travelled in Russia and the Baltics I've heard lots of stories about Putin and his cronies and what they get up to behind the scenes in other people's back yards.

The one that springs straight to mind is Litvenyenko who was taken out on the streets of our very own capital by a lethal dose of radiation.

I've also seen first hand how Russia has developed into a 'have and have not' nation with no effective middle class and note with interest how Putin (who is reputed to have amassed over £2b in personal wealth), shackled by constitutional limitations to his hold on power...... gradually fiddled the system to retain power... leaving Russia all but a dictatorship in name.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Putin

Russians are lovely people and it's odd that I've only ever me one who actually likes Putin and thinks he's good for mother Russia.

It's good to debate politics though as it get's away from football..... and the ongoing dictatorship of comrade Ashley

 

Putin is just as bad as the lot of them. I couldn't agree more ..I am coming more from the ..Russia isn't the 'Evil Empire' its being portrayed as atm ...for when it comes to 'blood on hands', we, in the US/UK/West, REALLY need to sort out our house first before we start morally pointing the finger at Russia (and/or China ..they will likely be next for the treatment)

Totally agree, re dictatorship in Russia and with Putin, but the same can be said-'ish' for UK and US ...we are just slightly more sophisticated about it and change the puppet in front of camera's every 5 yrs ..nothing actually changes.
And any electoral choice we have between parties is non-existent in everything but name and a tiny, small difference of emphasis.

Never been to the Baltic's or Russia myself (unless you count driving (hitch hiked) through East Germany to Berlin in the early 80's, and being, stopped by the UK forces there and then driven to a hostel by them , at 3am in the morning, but eventually going into the Russian zone just for one day, like all good heroes ) but it is on my bucket list..by motorbike ideally

One of my close mates is a Ukrainian (emigrated 30 yr ago to US) and this isn't an unusual type of debate for us to have about Russia (he would agree with you on a lot of things) over a pint or three ..with a corresponding rise in belligerence with each pint .. All good fun

 

Shame you tend to ignore the facts about the war criminals in British and American governments. As for wealth accumulation - Have you seen how much the middle east "peace envoy" Blair has made and continues to make? What about Cheney and Bush after the rape and looting of Iraq?

CIA/MI5 destabalisation, regime change, looting of natural resources for corporations, cultural imperialism..Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Ukraine, Iran etc - Its no wonder Russians and Putin dont trust the West.

As for the fiddled system - well is there any difference between the three main parties or Republicans/Democrats in the States?

They dont work for the people. They work for the corporations and bankers.

 

Ignoring nothing.(Churchill was instrumental in the creation of the first concentration camps).. The topic of the thread is Ukraine and I was commenting on said topic and subtly alluding to the fact that we should bomb the **** out of the commie bastards in Russia ASAP so that we can justify stealing their natural gas.
We should have combined with the Wehrmacht in 45 to sort communism out once and for all....

 

Come off it man. So a group of neo-nazis undemocratically seize power in Kiev, supported by the West ($5bn in support). The large Bolshevik population of the East and in Crimea ask Russia to help and they werent wrong in needing it. There's every reason to believe that decisive action by Putin in Crimea (which has always been Russian and was never Ukranian until a silly decision by Kruschev in the 50s) avoided alot of bloodshed. The blame lies squarely with the eastward NATO creep (something America gave guarantees would never happen as the break up of the Soviet Union was being negotiated) and deliberate destabilisation of a legitimate government because he dared balk at the draconian austerity the EU were seeking prior to any trade agreement.

Id say its also a bit disingenuous, if not downright insulting to alot of Russians, to compare them to the Nazis given their sacrifice (circa 25m dead) during the war and the simple fact it was Russia who won the war almost by themselves.

The bombing of civilians in Libya never happened, it was a white lie to justify "humanitarian" intervention. Yet we have actual bombing of civilians here and not a peep. Open your eyes man

 

Jackie, don't forget 20m of the dead Russians were sent to the gulags by uncle Joe.
He made the Austrian look like a pussy cat.
It was the US entering the war which stopped the Russians and ourselves being swiftly defeated and the arctic convoys the US and UK put together became the umbilical chord with which Russia survived.

 

20m sent to the Gulags, you may want to check that again?

And the overemphasis of the Arctic convoys is a bit tedious now. There is no way such convoys had any tangible impact on a front on the scale of the Eastern front. So many Russians died because on the Eastern Front they met 2/3 - 3/4 of the entire strength of the most devastating military machine the world had seen up to that point. The tide of the war was not turned on D-Day as we are so oft told, it was turned a year and 4 months earlier when the Red Army routed the Germans from Stalingrad after the bloodiest single battle that has ever taken place. The first major strategic defeat for Germany and one from which they were in irreversible retreat.

Arctic convoys were peacemeal, Russia pleaded with the Allies to land in France nearly two years before D-Day to take some of the heat out of the Eastern Front, America et al saw fit to sit back, wait and watch millions of dispensible Russian lives be lost until the outcome of the war was no longer in doubt so they could finally invade and not push for Berlin, but the industrial heartlands of Germany where some of the best German scientific brains (war criminals in their own right) were situated and could be claimed in preparation for the already planned next phase of hostilities against the Commie.

One stat sums up Russia's contribution more than any other - from the time America joined the war in 1941 to the end of hostilities in Europe, 85-90% of all casualties inflicted on the Whermacht were by the Red Army on the East

 

Putin is a nasty piece of work IMHO.
He needs his ass kicking.

 

You volunteering?

 

Uncle Sam should deal with him.

 

Ok, how? Economically? America have $19tn debt and avoiding default is based upon the petrodollar. The recent $400bn Chinese/Russian gas deal precipitated by recent "sanctions" has already got their arses twitching with regard to that.

Militarily? I dont know about you but I dont fancy trying to cultivate an existence out of radioactive ash

 

Should send in the Seals to take him out.
They got Bin Laden.

 

And im sure Putin has the cream of the Spetznaz watching his back, and he also has the worlds most advanced anti-aircraft/missile system. Those choppers aint getting through.
But even the attempt would risk the conflagration of the situation into a "hot" conflict.

 

Black ops are deniable.
A small 4 man team could covertly carry out the mission.

 

... Or send in Rambo.

 

Erm, as hated resident know-it-all, I'd like to add to the mix that Hitler, as a scholar apparently inspired by Napoleon, should have noted the disastrous consequences of the French **** after invading Russia. The German war effort was seriously undermined by their incursion into that territory. The Red Army had a proven historical advantage. They gave up loads of territory, but as soon as hard winter hit, unprepared German forces were a sitting duck in foreign territory. They might as well have been on a planet without a breathable atmosphere.

If we're going to follow the line that Russia won the war, then mother Earth and historical human adaptability deserves more of the plaudits!

 

What a load of horse manure,if the lad wants to link something it's not your choice to take it out just because it doesn't fit in your agenda.Fs it's a forum and not YOUR forum and it does have relevance because it's only 2 years ago that England played there in the Euros.