Ask Princess - 2014

It's hard to tell as they're not proper conformation shots, but the Midday filly looks a strong well-made sort and the Gift Range colt looks good.

 

Thanks pN. I thought the Gift Range looked good but it could have been wishful thinking. I was worried he was a bit straight in front.

 

It's hard with foals as they can change so much in just a few months. It's one of the reasons that the big studs (Coolmore, Darley etc) don't tend to release pictures until the goals are a good few months old and have worked out any kinks!

I know that Darley have a social media policy banning their staff from putting photos of their foals on Twitter and Facebook in case they decide to sell them. I also know that Darley had the first Frankel foal born but they did not go public with it.

 

Very interesting. Thanks

 

Thicko here hadn't realised there were 4 pages of them

As you say Princess, they can change quite a lot during growth. It was exactly the same with our afghan hounds. The first litter we had we got quite worried when one (white bitch) looked horrifically out of proportion at one stage but grew into a beautiful specimen. I can fully understand why they don't release photos.

Just based on what we can see, the first one I would eliminate would be the Noelani foal. Looks too short in the back for the length of leg and the front does look a bit straight. However, it depends how old he is. When our Romeo was born he looked so small we thought he was a pony, but then he stood up and he had a short back and incredibly long legs. Within a few days he looked fantastic, and has ever since. The reason for this, as Princess will know, is that the mare restricts the growth of the foal in her womb and, depending on how the growth has been restricted, it's only after a couple of days or so you can start to get a proper picture of its shape.

I think it's a fairly safe bet that if, when properly stood, it has a good lay back of shoulder as a young foal it will retain it; similarly, if it hasn't, it won't develop one.

 

Thanks Ron
that's a great insight

 

pN
Kodiac is doing rather well as a sire of 2yos this year (and last to be honest). As a Danehill brother to Kingman's sire Invincible Spirit (by Green Desert) isn't he just about the best value on the block (10,000 versus his brother's 70,000). Yet it seems the 'serious' breeders don't seek him out. Is there any view on him?

 

Morning Bustino. It may be because he is mainly noted for being a producer of early 2yos. As you say, he is well bred (even has Ribot in the pedigree LOL) but has he produced anything that sets the world alight. I don't think so but haven't checked.

Whereas, for example Sinndar, Arc winner and sire of 3 times Arc 2nd Youmzain, and also broodmare sire of G1 classic winners Trading Leather, Flotilla and Encke stands at a mere 4,500 Euros. And his son Youmzain out of a Sadlers Wells mare is standing at 3,000 Euros. To me that makes Kodiac look expensive.

 

Whilst KODIAC is a good source of 2yos he has yet to break through into the big time. He hasn't had a single Group winner from his 5 crops to race so far. He has had 11 Listed winners and a handful of Group placed horses but at this stage in his career he needs to be producing big winners to catch the attention of breeders. I suspect the majority of his mares come from commercial breeders looking to sell and appeal to the breeze up market.

 

Yes. I see some of his yearlings go for decent amounts

 

I'm sure you are both right, but he sure gets winners. Out of the 3 2yo races today he has 2 runners, both with chances.

 

Ron
You can't expect to get away with that. When Will it End wins for Kodiac and beats a War Front hotpot from Godolphin, who I am sure cost more than €10,000. Kodiac horses can only run against the horses they are set to run against. The point is that they win and beat these 'better bred' horses (sic). If you had a mare who was reasonable and you had one chance to breed to it would you honestly say you'd send it to Sinndar who seems to produce mostly, woefully slow horses or to Kodiac? I know what I'd do, even if he does cost twice as much. And the same goes for these big breeders who wouldn't stoop to sending a mare to this Group 3/listed winner. If he can get winners with commercial mares he could get them with better mares: he just needs the chance. And it doesn't matter what I say because the future will prove it.
Any mating must be subject to the following:
You want the mare to get in foal; he gets a large number in foal (he's not as potent as his half-brother)
You want the foal to be able to race; (there are plenty of horse out there by Kodiac)
You want the foal to win races. Well he does that.

So I look at the 2013 returns for Kodiac, Sinndar, and Youmzain. Now I know the statistics are not straightforward because basically it's about British/Irish breeders and there may be a whole pile of French breeders sending their horses to Normandy to be bred to Sinndar and Youmzain but the figures still don't look good. Kodiac was sent 178 mares, Sinndar was sent 4 and Youmzain was sent 2. Now the Newhaven Dieppe ferry is very pleasant, but why would you queue up to send your mare to Sinndar or Youmzain? The figures tell the story.

I'll leave you with a quote from Mr Ruskin

When you pay too much, you lose a little money; that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything because the product you bought is incapable of doing what it was bought to do.
The common law of business prohibits paying a little and getting a lot. It can’t be done.
If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run. And if you do that, you would have enough to pay for something better.

Kodiac gets winners: a Sinndar pedigree may look very nice but it's about winning. Well done to the Tally Ho stud.

 

Well done on your research Bustino. One of your hot subjects I know. But what is it I'm trying to get away with?

 

Saying that Sinndar or Youmzain are better value than Kodiac. The market is always right (even if unfortunately).

Certainly not a hot subject with me: just an observation.

 

Oh I see. I was only having a guess at why his fee was only 10,000 Euros; nothing against the horse myself. I only mentioned those two sires because I was considering using Youmzain at some stage, given pedigree match and low fee (although Youmzain's first 2 yos only appear this year so a lot to prove). However I did acknowledge that Kodiac was getting very good prices for his yearlings (ie up to 20 times the stud fee) so I'm not knocking him in any way (as if I would knock something with Ribot behind it). From a viewpoint of breeding to sell as yearlings there is no doubt he looks good value for his pedigree. His stud fee has increased from 4,000 Euros in 2009 so he is obviously popular.

He looks to have had some decent broodmares (eg mares by the likes of Pennekamp, One Cool Cat, Barathea, Unfuwain, Sadler´s Wells, Rainbow Quest, Soviet Star, Grand Lodge, Fantastic Light, Trempolino, Green Desert, Galileo, Daylami, Zafonic, Oasis Dream, Mark Of Esteem, Peintre Celebre and more). So he hasn't been starved. I admit I haven't looked into the dam side of his mares but assume they aren't all rubbish.

Sinndar's stud fee was 38,000 Euros in 2002 and has been decreasing to its new low of 4,500 so maybe that spells that he is in rapid decline, which is why I am more interested in his son. But it depends what his first lot of 2yos look like this year.

I'm not actually disagreeing with you Bustino. I mean, he is the second leading sire of 2yos in Europe. I was just speculating as to why his stud fee isn't higher. Not that is of any interest but, to be honest, he isn't a sire I would immediately be attracted to.

 

I ought to point out that the ROM is not indicative of how many mares an overseas stallion has been sent, it only records the progeny by those stallions born in Britain and Ireland. There are many GB/IRE breeders who have mares boarding in France so those offspring will never show up in the ROM. In fact, with the generous premiums paid for French-bred horses that win in France, more and more breeders are leaving their mares resident in France.

 

Fair point pN, and I alluded to that, but I doubt if Sinndar is getting sent many mares. We have to say he's a relative failure.

I suppose the point of my post was when you get half-brothers (or full brothers for that matter) does it often happen that despite a wide gap in their racing ability the 'lesser' stallion narrows the gap at stud? I can only think of Nimbus (Nearco)and Grey Sovereign (Nasrullah) who were half-brothers of distinctly different abilities in many ways. Yet the lesser horse ( GS's biggest win was the Richmond stakes, yet Nimbus won the 2000G and Derby) was probably the better sire and certainly more prominent today.

With the limited knowledge I have I was wondering if breeders are actually far too conservative and should go for a bit of rough now and then. Not that Kodiac is rough, in fact on paper I'd say he looks better than IS. What is also interesting is that the distaff line has produced reasonable sires in the past: like Pitcairn who produced that very tough horse Ela Mana Mou. Actually Rafha (their dam) was a really good filly and a good mare, and she has 3 crosses of Hyperion in her 5th Generation. So maybe the old boy is still playing a role in the modern thoroughbred.

It must be a nightmare Ron, considering stallions when you only have one mare and probably not the bank of Dubai to back you up.

 

We are more into show jumping Bustino, for which we currently have 5 mares. We have just the one thoroughbred though but at present she is being used for show jumping breeding program and she is due next month, from a repeat mating. We can get top stallions in show jumping for reasonable prices (eg Arko III was the Number 1 Showjumper in Europe in 2004, 2005 and 2006 and voted the best horse in the world for 2004 and 2005 and he currently costs £1500 +VAT). Arko at stud. But as you so rightly pointed out, they have to put the mare in foal and rumour has it that isn't happening very often these days). When we used him it was £3,000 and our mare went straight into foal.

The year after next we may well venture into the thoroughbred breeding. Our mare has proven to be a very good mare that produces quality so it could be very interesting choosing a sire. Can't see us going over 10,000 Euros though so somewhat restricted as you say. I don't see it as a nightmare, more an interesting venture. We would probably take it to the yearling sales and hopefully not lose any money. A bonus would be if it got to the track and won some money, we would, as breeders, get a %. Now that would be exciting but, I stress, a bonus.

 

That's a bit harsh Bustino. Agreed he's past it, as reflected in his fees (down from 38,000 Euros to 4,5000 Euros. But a horse that sires a 3 time 2nd in the Arc with earnings close to £3.4m, a dual G1 winner with earnings close to £1.5m and 2 other G1 winners can hardly be regarded as a relative failure.

 

I agree that breeders should look outside the box more often, but they're a conservative bunch!

Nashwan and Unfuwain were another example of half-brothers who switched roles once at stud. Nashwan was the better racehorse, but Unfuwain the better sire.

Part of Sinndar's problem was his pedigree, his sire Grand Lodge was not a great success - he got a handful of good horses but when his fee, and therefore the quality of his mares, went up he failed to deliver.