Off Topic Dark Matter and other Astronomy information.

who says gravity escapes a black hole?

The theory is that a black hole can "emmit" particles from before the event horizon due to the super heating/pressures creating plumes/jets of matter but once you pass the event horizon nothing at all gets out.

its a theory...

and no sisu that is quite simplistic.

image space time as a gird and the sun distorts that grid via its mass, in other words its effectively warped around the mass of the sun. It is the warped space that the earth travels through the warping is then proportional to the mass of the sun and inversely proportional to the distance from the point of warping.. as newton said... nothing contradicts that equation yet.

therefore the electro magnetic radiation travelling from the sun at the speed of light is a separate entity to the "warpage"

Again all theories but at least they have basis in observable science.

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My rather limited understanding of Physics would suggest that there is no true answer to your question, yet. Gravity's MO is as of yet unknown. Some physicists have proposed that it travels at the speed of light, in accordance to Einstein's relativity, others have disputed that. Experimental evidence is, apparently, inconclusive.

In which case, as there is no consensus, feel free to make up your own answer.

 

Space is a set of coordinates, x y z. A reference to an object's position, I believe the theory that it cannot be bent or folded. There is no empirical data to show we can bend space time or that it exists, or that it even exists. Time is a human concept, a direct consequence of mathematics from 1900s and it never sat right with me that we assign physical properties to mathematical concepts, like the point of a singularity, it is mathematical artifice that has been assigned physical properties. Like time, a fabric, it is just a measurement of the rate at which things occur. General relativity shoehorns interpretation into following this path, it just might be possibly that mathematics did not reach it's zenith in 1915 when the milyk way was the universe.

Mathematics should explain physical things, never create them, does that make sense. Yet astrophysics is mathematics and the observational data is interpreted afterwards to fit the maths, this is fact, this is how it has been working since general relativity.

problem is there are quite a few who question Einstein's field equations upon which so much theory rests, especially the energy momentum tensor being set to 0 which leads to a universe with nothing in it, the matter is injected from outside the equation by the accompanying words of the field equations in Einstein's work, "from outside a body" which is where the mass comes from, but if there is nothing in the universe then there is no body to be outside of.

Worth mentioning general relativity does not deal with gravitational force at all, Newton's gravity was patched on to general relativity. Newton's gravity has been applied to the universe, a theory, it may not actually be the same throughout the universe, we have no way of knowing.

Also, concerning what you said, observable science, in part you are incorrect, it is interpretation of data that is the key here, and if you are working on the premise space time exists then this is how you will interpret the data.

it's all as you said, theory of course, and very interesting at that. The latest data coming in from missions is showing much theory to be wrong

someone said recently that black holes and gravitational theory are best explained as reasons for theoreticians can get aoid without having to do real science. Just thought it was funny.

here is an indication that this theory you have shown in the image may be wrong
A planet 17 times the size of earth has astronomers "scratching their heads" This huge planet should be pulling hydrogen from the sun at that mass but it is not.
it is a strong indication that theories are wrong, we are finding stuff like this every month

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-27669572

I have to repeat though, magnetism moves at the speed of light gravity does not. We don't even know what gravity is? And yes gravity escapes a black hole because gravity pulls things into the black hole from outside, if gravity could not escape a black hole there would be no external gravitational force external to the event horizon. See, more nonsensical outcomes of the limit of the speed of light.

Also the maths says an event horizon has an escape velocity. Yet theory says nothing can escape sot the math does not actually match the theory. Lets not even think about the various elements of equated infinity about singularities and black holes.

 

No idea myself matey, just questions i have
I would imagine if the sun went pop it would not take 8 minutes for us to feel the consequences tbh.

The bitch is not knowing what the heck gravity is

 

Yeah, it's a fascinating poser. I await the arrival of the Darwin of gravitational physics, myself. When it comes, it'll be one of the greatest scientific discoveries ever.

 

I'm interested in a lot of varied stuff, physics and astrophysics included, but I don't know anything like enough to answer the questions posed above.
I think that to get answers on esoteric subjects like these you need to ask a real expert, not just someone who's read a couple of books, and accept that generally speaking they know what they're talking about.
Finding apparent flaws in a theory doesn't mean you need to lob the theory out of the window. The nature of understanding is that you adjust your theories constantly in the light of new discoveries.

 

Lorentzian relativity is interesting and not limited to the speed of light.

On the issue of the sun and earth and gravity, if gravity is in fact geometrical propagation due to the shape of space time then the effects would indeed be instant. if the sun disappeared the earth would feel the effects instantly one would imagine as geometrical manipulation can affect both ends of a geometrical shape at once. As in that image MITO posted.

hmm, in that sense if Newton's gravity that has been patched to general relativity, is as in the theory then gravity is faster than light, which is circular problem as it would also mean general relativity is wrong.

man my head is starting to hurt

 

again warped space..... you are making gravity be a particle or emission rather than ubiquitous presence. If gravity is a gravitation particle fine but if its warped space time black holes can be explains as warping space so much that things fall into them rather than be pulled in... as it were.

 

I agree, Saint. Physicists, like scientists of other disciplines, go through lengthy training for a reason. I used to have a friend who was an astronomer and astrophysicist. I'd usually go to him if I had any queries, when I was at University. Unfortunately we've lost touch. He'd be ideal on this thread.

 

See my post to CCC just above on geometrical propagation and the problem with it.

 

Hold on a minute lads, you learn something and it is interesting, we are not an institute here, just talking ****.

Are we not allowed discuss it?

By the way, sometimes it is essential to translate maths to words to see contradictions as in the following, am sure the maths look good on this problem but if you break it down to English not so good.

The universe mass energy is created from nothing. hawking says energy cannot be created from nothing yet he goes on to say concerning the big bang.
just before the big bang the universe was 0 size infinite density and infinite temperature.

Well physics says that temperature needs particles to move about and cause friction. 0 volume prevents this as you cannot have particles and cannot have the room for them to move about. Also special relativity says infinite density\mass cannot exist, so when you break it down there are contradictions that have not been reconciled.


I am not a physicist but if you break it down some stuff sounds like bollocks. IMO this is because the mathematics is creating things that are physical rather than just explaining physical things we can see.

 

On sun earth gravity effect.

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No-one's suggesting we can't discuss it- fill yer boots.
All I'm saying is that we can't really get to the bottom of the apparent anomalies because none of us (I assume) is a real expert in the matter.

There are a couple of areas where I am reasonably expert and I sometimes find it amusing (or frustrating) when people try to argue with me from a point of relative ignorance. It's not always easy to explain in a few sentences something that takes years of training and/or experience to fully grasp.

 

I can only speak for me, am not an expert but it is worth keeping in mind creatures are born with an understanding of physics without knowing the math, to a certain degree. Take a cat jumping from a height for example, the cat instinctively knows to perform certain actions during flight.

You know to grab something moving by intercepting it's path. All without mathematical computation. We naturally understand momentum and other properties in physics before we learn what maths is. Another interesting topic actually, how we comprehend physics without even knowing what physics are

 

I agree with you, mostly. I believe that mathematics is merely a tool for understanding and describing the universe. I distrust pure mathematics that comes to any conclusion that cannot be proven empirically.
Unfortunately I don't know enough to construct a coherent counter-argument.
All I can say is that a mathematical formula can only accurately describe something if it takes into account all pertinent factors.
As we can't know what we don't know, then we can't be sure that we've included all the relevant factors, and that our maths is accurate. At most it is just the best we can do so far.
I do believe that most scientists understand that fallibility, though it may not always come across that way.

 

You all need to refresh your memories on the Higgs Boson and the Higgs Field

 

Are you his agent?

 

cant even wrap my head round that **** I am struggling with the basics as it is.

 

Well make a ****ing effort. It's got a significant amount to do with 'gravity'.

 

Am actually looking at it now

Better buy me some headache pills for the sore head I'm sure to have later on.