Your statement above reminds me of the chapel mentality in Wales years ago, and that's enough to turn anyone from any religion and the Bible, but religion and the Bible are two different things..........
Religion derives from the bible (and other scriptures) and is therefore one and the same. Unless your an evangelical and you read the new international version
I've heard this argument before and simply cannot understand it. Perhaps someone who knows can explain it to me. Christianity's whole raison d'etre is the Bible and its teachings. Likewise Islam and the Qu'ran. You cannot divorce the two it seems to me though many Christians openly disown the embarrassingly bad parts of it. Not sure how you can cherry pick like that but there you go. It's like saying you're an avid Sun reader but only look at page 3. Reminds me of this guy who puts out a similar (though not identical) argument. The Amazing Atheist rips him a new one: [video=youtube;yBo7Z_abiLE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBo7Z_abiLE[/video]
Not really! When man was first created, he was created perfect and death was not part of the picture, but because of man's disobediance and rebelion he was sentanced to death, that sentance was carried out in 'that day' a day with the creator is a thousand years. Methuselah's lived 969 years, Adam lived 930, God told Adam that in the day he ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, he would die. God's days are 1,000 of men's years. So Adam died in the same day of God's time that he ate the "fruit". Men lived longer until the flood, at which time God decreed that the badness of man was so bad that he felt regret at his creation, and so he limited the years of men to 120, so there was a huge drop in our life span after the flood, by the way why does every civilisation have a 'Legend of a great flood' and what does the Chinese word Hóng, (flood) actually mean? I'll let you find that one out! Did you know that the ancient Chinese new of Noah before the Bible or the old Hebrew scriptures were written? Noah's name in Hebrew No'akh, and in Chinese He is called Nuòyà . Back to your original critisism, why is it that medical science is always attempting to prolong life? And why is it that death is such an enemy? Is it because we have eternity in our hearts? and why is it that a tree can live for 5000 years, and a Dynastic Clam, an ocean quahog, scientifically known as Arctica islandica lived for 507 years, before dying in 2006? Birds living passed 80+ years and Giant tortoises which are famous for living as long as 130 years? So is it possible that pre flood man did actually live longer?
They are not the same, Religion is devisive and resposible for so many bloody wars through the ages, which is in contratst to the Bible, that is why Ghandi said what he said: Lord Irwin asked Gandhi what he thought would solve the problems between Great Britain and India. Gandhi picked up a Bible and opened it to the fifth chapter of Matthew and said: "When your country and mine shall get together on the teachings laid down by Christ in this Sermon on the Mount, we shall have solved the problems not only of our countries but those of the whole world." That sermon* speaks of: seeking spirituality, being mild-tempered, peaceable, merciful, a lover of righteousness condemns not only murder but being wrathful with others, condemns not just adultery but lustful thoughts as well speaks against irresponsible divorce actions It tells us: 'Love even those who dislike you, give to the needy, stop judging others unmercifully, treat others as you would like to be treated Religion and the Bible are two different things!...................
If you think the Bible doesn't have any violence in it I think you'd better read it again. As Dawkins said, and this isn't opinion but is based on what the Bible actually tells us about God and his deeds: "The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.” Sure there are messages of peace too but you can't ignore the other stuff that seems to have been left on the tree as the cherry picking goes on. Do you believe it though Phill? Just asking.
That's a valid arguement! But the bigger picture is that the creator was questioned on his universal sovreignty and his rightfulness to rule and as such is allowing suffient time to pass to see if his accuser is right or wrong, that acuser is of course the original slanderer the Devil himself, and in the fulness of time I'm sure that it will become evident to all in the cosmos, as well as on planet earth, that man cannot rule himself independent of his creator, and the evidence is mounting daily!.............. By the way, who's crashing those planes? Who's not feeding the children? Why is it they can get arms, but not food, and who is killing them? It certainly is not the creator, of course he cares, he cares very much.
I cannot ignore the wars and slaughter that are recorded in the Hebrew scriptures, as they are a testiment to man's inhumanity to man, the Bible spans thousands of years, and covers the Bablonian, Assyrian, Medo-Persian, Greek, and Roman world powers to our current day, it is littered with an honest account of the bloodshed, and it covers the creators dealings with his chosen people the Jews through these periods of history, where he protected them from far superior militaristic Nations around them. When they fell back into false worship he used these nations to dicipline his people, of course there is plenty of secular and historic evidence outside the Bible to show that this indeed was the case. Yes I do believe the bible and why shouldn't I? It has stood the test of time, and is not our judicial system in Great Britain based on it's principles?
Of course it's Gods fault. Isn't he the all seeing powerful being that can already see what happens in the future? If you read the bible there is no free will as everything is preordained by God.
No, our judicial system isn't based on Christianity at all but even if it was that's no reason to believe in a book imo, though I totally agree that you can believe in whatever you like, goodness knows our people have died to defend that right. But tell me how this creator "protected people from far superior militaristic Nations around them", and how did he "use these nations to dicipline his people"? I thought everyone was "his people"? How do you reconcile the message of peace the Bible purports to preach when Moses told his followers to kill people and "take the young virgins" for themselves? Looks like Dawkins is spot on - it's a pretty vengeful god isn't it? Do you actually believe the earth is 6,000 years old? Because if you believe in the Bible you should. Do you believe in Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden? If you do you cannot believe that Darwin was right. I'm genuinely interested as to how practicing Christians deal with these issues, and to be honest I don't know that many. Furthermore, you've been critical of Muslims on this forum (I agree with that btw) yet you seem to think your book is somehow superior. Why? If you'd have been born in Syria instead of Swansea you'd think the opposite. It's an accident of birth.
Is that why he allows deadly diseases and plagues, and allows natural disasters or two world wars, of the genocide of millions of innocent adults and children?
Sorry that you missed the funny bit that I found 'comedy gold', but you clearly feel that the Bible is discredited and is a load of old cobblers, and that's fair enough, but then in the next breath you expect me to digest this 65 Million years that the Dinosaurs have been extict? where do you get that figure and time scale from? were you around 65 Million years ago? does anyone have a definitive date or year that they passed from planet earth? It's at best a Guesstimate with even carbon dating!..................
Who causes the deadly plagues and diseases? who caused the two world wars? Did not the Jewish nation have laws on quaranteen, long before any other nation? who gave them that law? Didn't Job know that the earth was round and hangs on nothing long before Christopher Columbus? who told him? or did he have a space craft?...............
No I'm afraid it's not "guesstimating" at all. But I'm glad you're debating. It's established scientific fact that dinosaurs died out around 65 million years ago, though surprisingly not completely as some believe as some developed into the birds we see today. Others just evolved (sharks, crocodiles etc) - if you believe in Darwinism as I do. Dinosaurs were already struggling by the time of the Yucutan impact. Science has established without a doubt that man didn't make an appearance until about 2 and a half to 3 million years ago so there's around 60 million years separating the dinos and us. That's why 'One Million Years BC' is pure hokum, though I do still love Raquel Welch. So in answer to the question where I got my figure from, it's science. Even allowing for a margin of error there can be little doubt than no man ever saw a live T Rex. Are you still up for answering my points raised earlier at post 172?
You are wrong, do your reseach properly, and you will find that our Justice system is indeed based on the Bible and Christianity, as is our calendar. He protected his people the nation of Israel from overwelming odds, not only against the the might of Babylon, but also against Sennacherib's Army (Assyria) where one Angel distroyed 185,000 soldiers. He used the Babalonian World power to discipline the Jewish nation, when they went into slavery as exiles for 70 years due to the fact that they had turned to worshipping Idols, and passing their children through fire (Child Sacrifice), something that was detestable to the creator. It may sound harsh, but he gave them repeated warnings to return to doing what was good, and not to worship Idols made of stone. "take the young virgins" This goes back to the point you raised earlier, and is around the time of when the Nation of Israel were going through the land of Canaan (Promised Land) conquering all the Nations as they went, of course all these Nations practised what was bad (Child sacrifice etc) and the Nation of Israel where executing the creators Judgment upon these nations, the incident you refer to was regarding the Midianites who had plotted to bring a wedge between the Jews and their powerful God in a hope to stop the march the Jews were making through the land, and they did this by getting the Jews to worship the false Gods of Midian. The Midianite women's seductions of Israelites to their idol Baal-phegor is stated as the cause of offense to God, and why he decreed the complete destruction of Midian, of course they did not carry this out correctly, and so the further instruction was given to clarify and put right. Now when you read these accounts they are of course during a time of ancient warfare, with the rules of that period and in ancient times invading armies spared no one, not even children, it might seem barbaric to us today, but that's how it was in ancient times, and the language of the accounts reflects that. You have to understand that the Hebrew writings are the history and wars of the jews and their relationship with their God, where as the Christian Greek writings usher in a message of peace and security through divine rulership. I do not know how old our planet earth is, but I do know that recorded history of man goes back approx 6000 years. Our planet could well be Millions of years old, a day with the creator is a 1000 years? I have read the Origin of Species, and to sum it up there are a lot of ifs and buts, too much supposition for me to accept. All I see around me has purpose and design, when I watch the Grand Prix with Ferrari and Mclaren fighting it out in those incredible machines, I would never presume to deny the designers and manufacters they rightful title to ownership and construction, so why should I deny ownership and construction of the Universe and Planet Earth? Who put it in it's orbit? Who put it at it's axis and angle of rotation? who placed it 93 Million miles away from the Sun? who created it's molten engine beneath the earth's crust? who decided it's speed of rotation? who decided the gravitational force for planet Earth? Where did all the Mathematics come from, who placed the laws of physics in place, who was the Quantum Engineer of it all? Primordial soup? sorry but it is not rational, intelligent, or logical to even consider this, Darwin and his followers are not for me.....................
It is not an established fact at all, it is simply a consesus of opinion that can change tomorrow as new evidence is found, yes I have just answered your post 172....................
Talking of new evidence 'The Big Question: Why did dinosaurs die out, and why should it matter 65 million years later'?................... LINK: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...-it-matter-65-million-years-later-768816.html Read all about it, it wasn't a rock from outer space after all, it was a Virus!........... But then again it could have been a Volcano!............... Next it will be 75 Million years ago, or a 165 Million years ago.................
Well you have answered me now. And it confirms what I suspected since this debate started. You're either on a massive wind up or stone cold bonkers. Consensus of scientific opinion based on known facts. That's what science is. It's not guesswork. On the killings that take place in the Bible, how is that reconciled with the 6th commandment? How is it reconciled with the Christian ethos of turning the other cheek? Too many ifs and buts and provisos for me. "A day with the creator is 1,000 years"? Where's that from? Sounds like something the religious lobby would invent under mounting scepticism. [Edit: It's from Peter (an English name) and has been taken out of context by believers to justify a re-interperetation of Genesis. The verse actually speaks of god's patience and the context is absolutely nothing to do with creation. More cherry picking I'm afraid.] Recorded history of man is 6,000 years? Really???? Who made the cave paintings going back 40,000 years? A talented squirrel brandishing a palette? You either accept scientific evidence or you don't. Religious acolytes have a history of changing their position as the evidence overtakes them. Even the Church recognises Darwinism these days so your views are behind the times and if I may say so rather extreme. But that's your call and as I said before you can believe whatever you please. You say Darwinism is effectively "not rational, intelligent, or logical to even consider" yet it's rational, intelligent and logical to believe that god made the earth, along with Adam and Eve (always wondered how they had such English names) and that Noah got all those animals in his ark when the rains came. I could go on. Logical? Rational? Intelligent? Hardly. EDIT: That article refers to the Yucatan impact as the "most plausible" theory. Probably a combination of factors imo of which that was one.
