Not insulting or praising either - just commenting that both punch way above their weight as they effectively exploit public opinion and the mistakes made by their rivals
But they ARE racist. Yesterday I had to suffer listening to one of their supporters going on about foreigners taking all our jobs and so on and saying we should copy Australia in its immigration policies - he was fixing my phone so I was a captive audience. UKIP MEPs take their SALARY - not just their expenses - as MEPs but refuse to vote in the European Parliament. If they had honour they would donate their salary to charity if they have no intention of doing their job. Anyone who votes UKIP needs to know they are voting simply as a protest as UKIP do not actually intend to do anything. The "Germans" point is just to highlight the hypocrisy of a man who rails against employing foreigners but who employs his German wife - another nice bit of taxpayers money in his family - to be his secretary - I wonder how do other politicians cope with having British secretaries. The man has no honour - he spins a good tale, that is all. Why do we care? Because he is taking OUR money and deluding voters. As above - it is ONLY a protest vote as UKIP have no policies other than that Britain should leave the EU - and as they wont vote in the EU Parliament they will achieve nothing there. Maybe if they get MPs at Westminster they can try to actually DO something. The argument about having no voice is always used by losers. We all have an equal voice - our vote - if you happen to support a minority party you still have a voice you just are outvoted by a majority - how would you run a country - adopt the policies of a minority? Of course not. If they are "right" maybe they will form a majority themselves one day. This is the nub of your views. You are anti-EU so support anyone who will leave it. It was started in trade that is true but always had the ideal of forming close ties between countries to prevent there ever being another European war. Those were the ideals from the beginning and they have never changed and have been successful for its members. So successful that it has grown from the original 6 countries. When we joined in the 1970s it was far far more than a few trading countries. The Kinnocks are just examples of politicians - at whatever level - they do a job and get paid for it - if it is so attractive and easy to do maybe others should try to get on their "gravy train". The examples of Government you give all represent different levels of responsibitliy - perhaps you think Westminster is there to run your Parish affairs? What part of being in the EU stops us trading across the world? We trade across the world now - how would leaving the EU "open" new markets? Of course Audi etc will continue to trade into Britain - nobody suggests they wont. But will non EU multinationals set up their headquartes in a tiny little island state that has just exited from the world's largest and most successful trading block? Not in the long term. I concede - for now - on the Euro but if you are a betting man I will bet you that in 25 years the EU will be the most stable and important currency in the world. Sterling? Let's see how that suffers when the Scots vote for independence. My views are that there is a lot wrong with the EU's political structure and these need to be changed. There is a lot of support for that view amongst people all over Europe - wee should try to change the nature of political control in the Eu - not just to sulk and walk away. I apologise to anyone who has read this far - I am fully aware that these are just my personal opinions and are no more correct than other people's and that my style is very direct. Unfortunately that is just the way I tend to debate so please bear with me on that.
I completely agree with both of these comments. The point about being able to say what you want as you know you will not win an election is bang on - aside from a referendum on PR the Lib Dems have broken pretty much every promise in their manifesto and actually supported the tories in doing so. Be very careful what you wish for! The other thing about UKIP that concerns me is the intolerance of so many candidates. I find it staggering that so many are so openly homophobic for example.
What appears to have been forgotten in the 'immigration' debate regarding E.U. membership is that Britain is also a land of mass emigration. From the roughly 7 million British nationals living abroad between 2 and 2.5 million are in other E.U. countries - the highest number being in Spain, followed by France and Ireland. What would the situation be for these people if Britain opted out of the European Union ? Another point is that these 'Britons second class' are disenfranchised by the British government after 15 years absence (as if we were no longer affected by what Britain does in the World) and would have no say in a possible referendum, the results of which would affect us very much.
It's the same with the Scottish election Cologne - Scots living in England have no vote but English people living in Scotland do!
Again the claim that UKIP are racist, but what is the evidence? It is just a stone thrown by those who have no answer to the issue of mass economic immigration and the issues it is causing in this country. How can it be racist to want to control immigration from Germany in the same manner as we currently do for Africa or Asia - how is that racist? So the views of a bloke fixing your phone is taken as UKIP policy? - but it does show my point that ordinary working people are concerned about what is happening in their towns and cities and that the political elite in this country just do not understand as it just just does not register on their radar. How often do they take the tube? how often do they walk the streets of this country and see what is happening? I have absolutely no problem with people coming to this country to work and make a better life for themselves, but the reverse is true, this country has to benefit - so all I ask for is a reasonable level of control to ensure that balance is made. Actually there is one area that I do have a concern, it's this country stripping poor countries of their trained Doctors and Nurses. It must be a huge struggle for those countries to fund their education and training and yet as soon as they are qualified, we suck them up - I can understand their personal reasons to come to this country, but it does not make it right. As for Brits living abroad, what would change? Unless the argument is that if the UK left the EU, all EU citizens would be immediately deported - even German secretaries? I have never seen that written down as any UKIP policy. But I'm sure it will become a scare tactic from the political elite as they are getting worried about their gravy trains. Another myth is UKIP MEP's not voting in the EU Parliament, well they do. Has anyone any idea how the EU Parliament works? Laws, regulations and dictates are framed by the unelected EU Commissioners and after a limited period of debate, the MP's are given around 3 mins to consider their vote - 100's of votes are requested each day. It's a travesty of democracy. I have a lot of experience of trying to deploy some of these regulations, it is an utter nightmare - SEPA is a great example. Put back another 6 months as the EU Commission does not have a clue - ask them to clarify parts of the regulations and it takes months to get an answer and it is full of holes. SEPA has absolutely no benefit for the average EU citizen, none at all - but is has some potential benefit for the typical EU politician. Craziest idea was to try to force the implementation in non Euro countries, most companies have refused as it makes no sense. Parish Council - Keeps the football pitches in good shape and the bushes and grass cut. Fine for me and generally do a good job. Regional Council - Manage local things like schools and roads. Fine for me and generally do a good job. County Council - Manage much larger items such as social care where the scale of economy makes sense. I really do not have much interaction with them - currently! UK Government - Would expect them to manage those items that should be at a national level i.e. taxation, defence, NHS, defining national policy and strategy. Run by the political elite that all went to the same schools and universities and have no clue what it means to live and work in the UK. I would devolve much of their power down to a more local level. EU Government - What can they do for me? They exist to create laws, rules and regulations that are just not needed. Just look at how useless they have been regarding the Ukraine! I love this debate as it means the readers of The Guardian and The Independent are being woken up from their cozy middle class worlds and will begin to take note - i bet not many of them had to coach their daughter through GCSE maths because the teacher she had had such a heavily accented speech it was impossible to understand. No, I did not complain as I did not wish to be called a racist either!
Nowt wrong with that though - I'd argue that government in all its forms is related to the spending of the taxes of the residents, and the right to vote – whether in general elections, local elections or a referendum – should be dependent on which economy you support through payment of your taxes. As an Australian citizen working and resident in Scotland, I contribute to the local economy and I therefore expect to be given my say - just as I expect to lose my right to vote in Australian elections until such time as I return to live there. Opening the referendum up to all Scots who have chosen to leave the land of their birth would likely be a logistical nightmare anyway - and one open to corruption. You mention that English living in Scotland have the right to vote - and so they should for the same reasons as I have - but there are English aplenty who live in England but are claiming the right to vote in the referendum as well, using the similar ruling that MPs do when 'flipping' their main place of residence. It would be interesting to find out how many of them elect to remain 'Scottish' in the event of the Yes vote holding sway.
I would agree with that if it did not affect the rest of the UK. I am still not clear on quite why voters in the whole UK should not have a a vote on the future of the UK - I think BB told me it was Cameron's decision - if so I would like to know his reasons. One that is obvious is the political capital Salmond would make out of "the future of the Scottish people is being decided by the English et al" However as someone said in the thread we had on Scotland it is like a marriage and if one partner wants out then the other has to put up with it. I feel like that with Scotland - if they don't want to be with us then good luck to them.
At least you have full voting rights BB - whether in one country or the other. My point was that British citizens who have been away for more than 15 years lose their voting rights there, and can only gain those rights elsewhere through naturalization in their adopted country. Unless a long term British resident in Germany or France becomes German or French then they end up with absolutely no voting rights anywhere apart from for European or local elections.
It is not unreasonable surely to ask people who have been away for 15 years to choose whether they wish to return and resume voting or to vote where they have chosen to reside. I am not sure I want somebody who has not been resident for 15 years helping decide the taxes I pay.
No that wouldn't be unreasonable Leo. The principle is one of the oldest of all - 'No taxation without representation`- one of the oldest precepts of democracy. To `vote where I choose to reside`is not an option without becoming German (even though I have paid 25 years of taxes here). This is a kind of grey area, in as much as some European countries eg. G.B. Ireland and Denmark suspend voting rights after a certain number of years - whereas others allow full voting rights only after naturalization - if you are caught in the middle then you have no voting rights anywhere. Also if Britain left the E.U. then even dual nationality would not be possible here.
I would have thought that Cameron would be itching to get rid of those pesky Scots. After all, it will mean Labour losing loads of seats in Westminster, so a big win win for him! But like most politicians, his is ****e scared of making big decisions in case they come back an re-visit him - mind you he only has to give Blair a ring on how to rewrite history! I've heard it all now, Gordon Clown comes out of retirement to lead the charge on saving this poor young girls in Nigeria - in safe hands there now! I am probably one of the few that can smirk at the irony of this, considering the Labour party's previous when it comes to Nigeria - the blood of 1,000's of Igbo's is on the hands of Harold Wilson.
UKIP appeal to racists - you have to be blind not to see that. A clever man like you can distinguish between cleverly worded statements by the UKIP that appeal to racist sentiments without being able to be accused of outright racist statements. The line is fine. Within the EU we have as much right to settle in Germany or France as they have to come here - there is no such reciprocal "deal" in Asia or Africa The bloke fixing my phone told me he was voting UKIP and went on to litter my ears with his racist views - I did not say it was UKIP policy - it is UKIP sentiment. Do you never use personal experience to show examples of your arguments? All it told me was that one UKIP supporter was racist - not what the average man in the street thinks. Politicians do not have to go on the tube to know what people think - at the very least opinion polls do that for them. It is very generous of you to be so concerned for the poor countries losing their trained doctors and nurses although I doubt you lose much sleep over it - but perhaps that problem is theirs to deal with. This political elite you keep referring to are people who have been voted into Parliament by every joe soap in the country - it is offensive to label them all the same - that is the hallmark of racists, sexists and homophobes - to lump an overarching label on people together with a pejorative adjective to dehumanize them. I have no doubt you do not fall into any of the above categories but am always reluctant to listen to arguments that categorize groups with a label. Nobody has used your scare tactic - but UKIP have used many of their own - suggesting ridiculously high estimates of people who will come into Britain from the likes of Romania and Bulgaria and always overlooking emigration. That myth as you call it was something I heard from Nigel Farage's own lips - he said they did not vote as they do not want to change the EU but to leave it. So you appear to accept the first 4 levels of government but not the fifth. Not quite what you implied earlier about not needing multiple levels. The fifth level in my opinion should be for what I described before in the US context as Federal issues. So financial flat playing field rules, trade rules within the EU, defense and foreign policy. Unfortunately the EU goes way beyond that - those are the areas I and lots of others in Briatain and across Europe would like to see reformed. Not worthy of you. Either state your views and opinions or be respectful of others - to imply people like myself are cozy middle class people is offensive. For the record I take no newspapers regularly. I had to coach my daughter through her GCSE maths because her school appointed a terrible new Headmaster who ruined a once good school - the staff fell to pieces and years of good work went down the drain. That was Ricky school (not some a private school. I and all my kids went to good old fashioned state schools) and the Head has since I believe been subject to prosecution for various offenses.
I confess this is not an area I have thought much about - surely it would be right for you to have your voting rights in the UK suspended until you return - or not even that if you still do pay UK taxes. also I thought that in Europe - perhaps Frenchie can clarify - you can get a status that is short of citizenship but allows many rights - and voting ought to be one of those.
We're probably speaking at cross purposes here Leo - most of my criticism here is directed at Germany. I have lived and paid taxes here for 25 years - vote in European and local elections - am a member of Bundnis 90 Die Grünen and am standing for the town council (Engelskirchen) yet still do not have full voting rights to decide how my taxes are spent in Berlin. Full voting rights are based on citizenship here, not length of residence (in some other countries it's more flexible). This, combined with the British ruling means disenfranchisement unless I become a German citizen. I would be all for a system where all people vote where they pay their taxes but that also isn't the case in Britain for E.U. nationals.
I am sure that the Tory party and to some smaller extent the Labour party also appeal to racists - white working class middle aged men are the most racist group there can be and yet many of them would vote Labour, so does that make Labour a racist party? People are racists, political parties cannot be, in the same way that Supermarkets cannot be. Lenny, the whole point about the Political Elite is that whilst many have been voted to represent their constituents, there is now a mass of unelected politicians that are framing laws and regulations that have no been through any election process, this includes the likes of the Kinnock's. They are unelected bureaucrats who are shaping how we live and if you look at their backgrounds, they come from a political elite that has very little reference to the everyday lives of the people of this country and the EU. Even the leading voted in politicians mainly come from very privileged backgrounds that allowed their Oxford political education and opened the doors that are just not available to ordinary people. They have no clue as to public opinion, they take from opinion polls what they want and proceed along their political dogma without any heed to the impact. If you find the term offensive, I apologise as I have no intent of offending anyone with my views, but for me these people are the root cause of the main issues in this country and the EU as a whole. Yes, I may not lose any sleep over the impact of draining trained medical staff from poor countries, I do see it as an issue otherwise why would I raise it? For me, these are the areas that would most benefit from foreign aid - support poor countries to develop their own talent and find a way to make it attractive for those developed to stay in their own countries for a number of years to give something back. This could be a pipeline that would benefit all parties. Lenny, my comments are not directed at you personally, they are rather aimed at the generalised response I have seen to the concerns that ordinary people have that are part of the UKIP agenda that labels them as racists - on other websites I have been called a racist, Adolf and Nigel because of my concerns. Personally my number 1 issue is the EU and unlike you I cannot see a way back because it is not the way that it is being controlled - more rather than less is the message. What is the proposed answer to the tribulations with the Euro? - greater alignment of tax and fiscal policies across member states i.e. more control within the EU. There is no way back because that would mean admitting failure and that will never happen. 4 levels of government is more than enough for any man! To add some local flavour. I live in one of the safest Tory seats in the area, yet my MP is that publicity seeking whore who ditched her job as an MP to go onto the ****e TV programme where Z list celebrities are dumped in the jungle - my vote is wasted anyway!
My sister lives in the same constituency - said she's the most useless cow you could ever hope to have as MP.
All parties contain racists but their policies are multiple and are not designed to appeal to racists. UKIP are anti foreign - it may be dressed up but we all know it - it is their one and only reason for existence. If they got us out of hte EU our increasing economic problems would then be put down to foreigners already here - and we know where that argument goes and which party is closest to that opinion. The EU has been overwhelmingly good for this country and since 1975 our position economically has been far better and more stable than before we joined. I fear that the current economic difficulties which I believe are only as bad as they are due to Labour usual economic mismanagement have made people discontent and opened an "easy" target - the EU. Kinnock would love to know he comes from a priviliged background as would most MPs from almost all parties - save the few old Etonians. No vote is ever wasted - it is registered and forms part of democracy which needs people to vote to sustain it
Neil and Glynis maybe never started there, but they became part of it after a particularly poor career in party politics, but their offspring certainly are and how did they get their jobs? Nepotism at it's best. We will have to disagree on the positive effects of the EU, I believe this country would have benefitted far more by agreeing trading terms with the EU, but stayed out of the whole EU government stuff. We could have been able to manage our own agriculture and fisheries, framed laws and regulations only really necessary for this country - our costs of compliance and costs of doing business would be a fraction of what they are now. All of our contributions to the EU could be spent on improving this country for the benefit of it's citizens. Will have to agree with you on the root causes of the current economic difficulties - although i am sure there will be a few to jump on the "blame the bankers" bandwagon.
