lol i love how it was him who initially provoked doing exactly what he accused others of trying to do, literally for no reason. There's so obviously no point in saying anything negative after "races" Hamilton strolls to victories in now, despite the fact this is a F1 forum, not LewisHamilton.com, because despite all the whining about Vettel doing that, you guys literally can't take one negative thing said about the man without whinging that everyone's immature and a hater. So you don't have to cry at the thought of me doing it any more it's you making these exchanges go round in circles just as much as anyone else, especially as you always resort to the same broken record thing... Edit: i'd also like to add, i'm fairly certain i recall seeing a post asking people to keep personal disputes/exchanges to the PM system, then i read a whole series of posts trying to single people out and provoke them, just because people don't like what they say oh and then the usuals joining in as soon as anyone responded.
Cosicave what's your opinion on the matter of Vettel having to adapt his driving style to this new era? How long do you reckon it takes a driver to get that "feel" and understanding back again but just in another way? Do you think it's normal for this kind of struggle after driving one way for so long and doing so well with it? Can he ever get over this kind of struggle? When will I win the lottery? Thank you if you can answer Cosicave.
Exactly, so I've no idea why it generates such heated arguments every time Hamilton does particularly well/badly! For whatever reason, some people have polarised opinions on Hamilton, seemingly more-so than any other driver. There's far more interesting things to talk about, and this forum is usually an excellent place to do so. There's plenty of people on here capable of rising above the mud-slinging, I'm sure most would appreciate it if we could try to ignore the obvious baiting when it occurs.
This was exactly the point I was trying to make originally. I thought this forum was a bit above this.
Sgt and Silver - maybe these questions will give more sensible and interesting debate... Why does McLaren continue to advertise all these parts and then fall flat on its face? Wouldn't it be better to just shut up right about now..let the parts speak for themselves and then rejoice? It's getting boring for the last few years - race after race - throwing all these parts at the car that is usually making the car worse than it was before. They are jumping up and down about how many new parts they are bringing and how these parts will give them these massive gains. Isn't that starting to sound a little foolish? Why not let the parts work first and then shout. Read the below article. McLaren expect massive gains with upgrades Tuesday 22nd April 2014, 18:03 by TF1T Staff © McLaren McLaren aren't too concerned by their lack of performance at the Chinese Grand Prix, which saw Jenson Button and Kevin Magnussen fail to score. That's because they're confident they can make a huge step forward in performance with their latest upgrades, which will filter through over the next few races, according to racing director Eric Boullier. "I know what is going on [at the the factory], so I know we are on a very good development rate," he said during a media call. "What we picked up [in terms of downforce] now since a few weeks is good. Very good." Boullier is hopeful that the upgrades, some of which have long manufacturing lead-times, will be ready in time for Spain and Monaco. "I hope it is going to come sooner than later. In the windtunnel already we have picked up a lot of performance. "Back in the factory it is fine. It is just a question of preparing everything and shipping it to the track." When asked if the performance they've found in the wind-tunnel would be good enough to get them on a level with Red Bull, he replied: "Definitely. This is 100 per cent sure because we know already back in the factory what is going to happen in the next three or four races."
And this is another good observation - something i wrote about earlier: Pressure effect' is Vettel's new challenge - Massa Niki Lauda also supports the notion the German struggles relates to the big changes in his Red Bull car and Ricciardo's obvious talent. Tuesday, April 22, 2014 April 22, 2014 (GMM).- Sebastian Vettel has "forgotten" how to drive something other than the best car in the field. That is Niki Lauda's view, as the entire world of F1 contemplates the reigning quadruple world champion's current struggle even to keep up with his new Red Bull teammate Daniel Ricciardo. Lauda, the Mercedes team chairman, told German television RTL: "He has been very spoiled in the past with many highs and victories, but that performance has gone. "He has forgotten how to drive another car. "With the (blown) diffuser cars, he had come up with a driving strategy that made him faster than everyone else. "But now Ricciardo, who has never driven another Red Bull, only knows this one -- and he is taking it in his hands and driving it," added Lauda. Lauda is not alone with his theory. Felipe Massa thinks Australian Ricciardo has arrived to be Vettel's teammate at precisely the right moment. "The best time to change is when everything is changing," he told the Brazilian press. "I'm sure it would have been harder for him if he had arrived last year, when Vettel was already used to the car for many years. "I think that is helping Ricciardo, but he's also showing that he is a great driver with a lot of talent," said Massa. Massa also thinks it will be a tough task for Vettel to get back to the top of the tree at Red Bull. "When he had a team that was all working for him, for all the years when he was with Webber, life was much simpler, easier (for Vettel)," he said. "But now he is under a little more pressure and that changes the situation -- the pressure effect," said Massa, who switched from Ferrari to Williams over the winter. "I am not knocking Vettel's talent, the driver that he is, because everything he did deserves the recognition. But this is a situation that now he has to overcome," the Brazilian added. "Without doubt it shows that Ricciardo is a good driver, fast and with the talent to be there. He has arrived at a great team and so far he shows he can do a great job," said Massa.
Now the post above is what McLaren is saying...but this is what their lead drive Jenson Button is saying: Jenson Button bemoans McLaren's lack of progress following torrid time in Shanghai By Daniel Johnson, F1 Correspondent, Shanghai 10:00PM BST 21 Apr 2014 Comments23 Comments Jenson Button admitted after a torrid Chinese Grand Prix, reminiscent of McLaren’s barren 2013, he did not “know what we’re really doing here”, and that he was bewildered by the team’s decline in fortunes. McLaren have gone from a double podium at the first race in Australia to a double retirement in Bahrain, and then an 11th and 13th-place finish on Sunday in Shanghai, a lap down on the race winner Lewis Hamilton. The team appear to have gone backwards or stood still while their rivals have improved. It has left Button hoping the start of the European season in Barcelona, in three weeks’ time, can end the pain. “We’ve not made much progress, and this circuit has really shown where our problems are,” said the 34-year-old. “We’re not very quick at the moment and we’re destroying our tyres, which is one of our biggest problems, and we can’t get the fronts working. “It’s all very strange, but hopefully we’ll solve it for the next race because it is pretty painful out there. We’re a lot further behind than we were at the last race, and I don’t think the other teams brought that much here. I don’t know what we’re really doing here.”
Lauda is usually over critical on drivers that show any form of problems and likes to make quick judgement on every single detail. Sometimes he is correct, sometimes he is completely full of crap a bit like Jacques Villeneuve. Further more he is now a Mercedes man now so his word has as much weight as Helmut Marko's in bias in driver opinion. With silly quotes saying Vettel "has forgotten how to drive another car" sounds more like them trying to apply a **** load of pressure on Vettel so he implodes like Lewis did in 2011 to make their titles chances easier. They won't care if he fails to win a race this year, it makes it Red Bull's problem with their 4 time WDC seeing red as it will spill internally which is what they want. Massa's I would take more notice of though, he doesn't have a grudge with Vettel and is more honest in his opinion with subjects on Seb.
But to be honest..Lauda has a point. That Vettel is accustomed to driving a very quick car with loads of down-force is very true. Winning four straight championships with a Red Bull with a strong down-force setup then now come this year to find that the car isn't as planted as what he is accustomed. So I can understand Lauda's point there. He has to get used to the back moving away a bit and try to find the limits of his car. And he needs to do this quickly, because we dont know if or when Newey will get the car back to his liking. And if he continues to struggle this season he will lose confidence. It's starting to manifest itself in his body language and especially in his voice. I just hope hecan counter that and get back to his old self so we can see what it is to be in a good car and race against other in equally good machinery.
The rear is still planted aero wise, Vettel is just struggling under braking and out of corners. That could be entirely the brake by wire system which is now software controlled / ERS unit doing the damage to the stability when trying to slow down. The Renault unit is probably the most torque out of the 3 power units having to compensate against the Mercedes engine. Brake by wire explanation: http://www.racecar-engineering.com/articles/2014-f1-explained-what-is-brake-by-wire/ "The main reason for this is that rules say that the car is only allowed to recover a certain amount of energy per lap from the rear brakes (it does not recover from the fronts), and there is only a finite amount of energy that can be stored in the battery. When either of these limits is reached the ERS stops recovering energy and the braking effect is lost and the traditional brakes take over. But for the driver it is important to retain the brake feeling otherwise when he hits the pedal he is never quite sure what will happen. If you imagine driving down a steep hill in a low gear using the engine braking alone to slow you down, then suddenly that braking effect stops it makes the car almost impossible to drive smoothly. The semi active BBW system should stop that from happening and automatically balance the conventional brakes with the ERS braking. But getting to work properly is a problem currently for a number of teams including Lotus “the biggest problems are how the chassis works with the power unit and how the energy recovery system works. So there are some inconsistencies there which are making it very difficult for the driver to predict what he is going to get when he arrives at the corner” Technical Director Nick Chester admitted. “So the system is not doing exactly the same thing every time and that is disturbing the driver and losing us a lot of time.” Getting the feel right for drivers is a major headache for some teams as well as making the systems reliable. At Melbourne BBW issues directly lead to a few off track moments for some drivers. “You just take the hydraulic inputs that the FIA specify and work with an electronically controlled hydraulic link to the caliper, at the same time you have some redundancy in there so if you have a failure it should revert to a manual brake circuit” Toro Rosso Technical Director James Key explains. “You have to account for any failure mode you can think of both mechanically and in software. Its bit like a differential or a clutch, but the tricky bit is mapping it well.” Mapping the systems is an area where some teams, notably those Renault runners who lost track time at the Jerez and Bahrain 1 tests, will be struggling in terms of time. “Brake by wire is a massive for us in 2014, you have control system mapping, driver mapping to get him comfortable, you have state of charge control, making sure the battery topped up at the right time and temperature and vibration and that is just one system” Williams Chief Test Engineer Rod Nelson explains. “The driver needs to have a good feeling of ******ation versus pressure that is not steppy or moves around, it has to stay the same. He can adjust the bias forwards or rearwards as in the past but we are also balancing how much energy he uses from the rears with how much we are trying to recover. Its key to the mapping and the brake setup that when you come off the brakes there is no residual force that may give a little bit of instability or a lock up. (((Some drivers are very very sensitive to this.)))" Horner after China: "We know that Sebastian is very sensitive to how a car enters a corner and at the moment he hasn't got the feel he needs."
Hi Silver. Just read to this post after my last. Firstly, thankyou for steering me and the thread itself back into something I, like you and most others, should hope to be talking about in a motor-sport forum. So, I'll make an effort You ask several questions which I will attempt to answer as straightforwardly as possible. Let's see how they turn out, because not even I know what I am about to say. (I need to re-read your questions!). I should add that what follows is entirely my opinion formed from personal understanding and experience, and should in no way be taken as a statement of fact or facts. Readers are advised to draw their own conclusions, just as I have. OK, after a quick refresher, here goes in roughly chronological order. Your first question requires some obvious statements which set the ground for what follows, but also requires some deeper background. (And no, Miggs; I'm not trying to invent excuses for Webber! ) 1. The Background Vettel will have to adapt to the new style cars, just as everyone else will. Previously, he'd had the luxury of Adrian Newey cars which deliberately focussed and exploited the evolution of his natural style (regardless of implications for a team mate) – with a concept as far removed from road cars as it is possible to imagine. The exhaust blown diffuser was in a sense the modern-day equivalent of the ground-effect cars of yesteryear; but Newey dreamed up and designed his whole car around the idea from the outset. Not only did he instinctively understand the massive advantage he'd get with a back-from-the-future-chassis and a well-schooled pilot, he also realised would-be copycats, when they finally caught on, would struggle to catch up at the usual rate for new technologies because their cars were wrongly conceived (for the EBD) in the first place. Meanwhile, he would developing the concept even further, and his driver would be developing the understanding and necessary feel for the technique long before others even had a clue! It was new. And he was first in. And other drivers simply could not believe what they were seeing from that particular driver/chassis combination in high-speed corners. A very talented driver; one hand-picked from a very early stage which predated the EBD. Nevertheless, he was the first driver to see and discuss the idea, as well as working through it with its inventor as development continued. One could say this gave him something of a head start. Equally, one might say he could find himself all at sea without it… 2. How long a driver takes to adapt will vary according to a number of factors. Dare I mention Hamilton? (Takes cover!). Despite the vitriol I sensed from earlier in the thread, it seems the most obvious bit of recent history to use for comparison. Although the particulars are different, there are some similarities with Vettel in terms of finding himself in somewhat unfamiliar territory. It is this sense of the unfamiliar (however caused) which presents the biggest challenge to a driver. And not only does this bring us back to your keyword of adaptability, it also pans out according to just how much one relishes and reacts to a challenge. So it's the whole mindset thing: something where your studies of psychology might provide useful insight! Last season there was some surprise amongst the public that Rosberg appeared to be continuing from where he'd left off with Schumacher. He appeared to be getting the better of Hamilton at the beginning of the season. Rosberg had been in the Mercedes camp since the team's return to Grand Prix racing, so he had a good understanding of the whole package, especially as it was essentially an evolution of the previous season's car. Conversely, Hamilton found himself in a very unfamiliar place: a strange car and an entirely new working environment with people he'd never met: people who think and communicate in different ways, with novel working practices and a very different philosophical approach he'd no choice but to learn. After the first two races, someone asked when it might reasonably be expected for Hamilton to begin to match him, if indeed, he was the real deal. I replied, "Silverstone", although I'd first suggested our home venue as the eclipse of Rosberg during pre-season testing. Let's see if Vettel is back on par by then, eh? If he maintains a positive outlook, he should be there or thereabouts. On the other hand, if he drops his head he could languish for significantly longer. And one final thought worth sharing: 'feel' extends beyond the physical feedback at hands, feet and backside; it extends and intrudes right into the head. And it's there that difficulties are either rectified or not. 3. Yes. 4. Yes. 5. I haven't a clue. Oops. [edit] Here's a final final thought: It's not entirely up to Vettel. He may find the new kid on the block has no intention of crossing the street…
Autosport have just published an article by Gary Aanderson (on their subscription only site) where he gives he ignores the power unit strengths and rates the cars based on the performance of the chassis. I have edited out most of the commentary but left some important points in. 1 RED BULL Red Bull has been the class of the field in recent years. Watching trackside, I have to say that it still is. At least, it is in Daniel Ricciardo's hands. He is so precise and consistent with his lines. As for Sebastian Vettel, he is still trying to drive a car with the exhaust-blown diffuser. With that design, at the corner exit it was all about getting the throttle open and getting the extra rear grip the exhaust gases offered. In 2013, he was the master of this and the Red Bull had the best system. But that is all gone now and he needs to change his driving style to suit the current specification cars. 2 MERCEDES 3 FERRARI 4 WILLIAMS 5 FORCE INDIA 6 TORO ROSSO 7 McLAREN The team talks of needing more downforce and I am sure that is what every team would love. But for me, it is aerodynamic or grip consistency as opposed to just more overall load. Everyone has a development plan in place but over the last couple of years McLaren doesn't seem to have anyone picking up on what is holding the car back and then steering that development plan to overcome those problems. 8 LOTUS 9 SAUBER, MARUSSIA, CATERHAM
I think Lotus are ahead of McLaren on downforce now. When its going at full power then its a good car. Grosjean did very well in china till it went bang. Also Mercedes is not just working on its power advantage. its miles ahead of the next best merc powered car and very stable so I think they have a very good aero package.
Let's see if this change of chassis will help Vettel take greater control of the car. I really think its more about him changing his style of driving a bit to fully exploit the characteristics of this car...Meaning Adapt or get left behind!. What do you think? Struggling Vettel to get new chassis Red Bull is investigating whether a fault in his chassis is causing Sebastian Vettel's 2014 trough. Team boss Christian Horner says the reigning quadruple world champion is lacking the "feel" for the RB10, while others think the German is simply being outclassed by his new teammate Daniel Ricciardo. Dr Helmut Marko, the champion of Vettel's career since his boyhood, has some other theories. "When downshifting, Sebastian needs a stable rear for his special style of driving. With all the new systems, he doesn't have that yet," the Red Bull director said. Austrian Marko tipped Vettel to eventually get it right. "In 2012 it was the same, and by the time he was happy with the rear, he was unbeatable," he is quoted by Germany's Sport Bild. However, there could be more to the story. "We don't understand why Vettel's tyre wear was so much higher than Ricciardo's," Marko said, referring to the Chinese grand prix. "We are now investigating whether his (Vettel's) chassis has a fault." Marko said Red Bull's target is to eliminate a chassis flaw as the potential origin of the problem by giving the 26-year-old a brand new 'Suzie'. "When a new one is ready, Vettel will get it," he confirmed. If a chassis flaw is not the problem, however, Marko is not guaranteeing a quick fix to Vettel's troubles. "This year is so complex that even the engineers don't understand everything," he said. "That makes it even harder for Seb to tune the car to his needs. "But Sebastian is a perfectionist. He will tinker with it until he gets it right."
Does anyone know for sure how many engine changes Red Bull had so far..Both Ricciardo and Vettel?? Silver??? Sgt?
Makes sense to rule it out as a potential issue I guess. I'm not sure why they felt the need to make that inforation public until it's built and tested though. If it makes no difference to Vettel's performance, it could just bring more pressure and questioning from the media.
