His son was there for years, and you are correct, you are no Einstein. One of the most well documented is the case of former Scotland striker Alan Brazil, who also played for Ipswich, Spurs and Manchester United, and who gave evidence in court that he had been abused by a former Celtic Boys Club coach, Jim Torbett. Torbett was jailed in 1998 for two-and-a-half years for molesting Brazil, who was 13 at the time, and other boys over a seven-year period. Torbett was abusing kids for 7 years, when exactly was Stein supposed to have found out about it? You suggest that Torbett's activities went unnoticed by anyone yet by pure coincidence you are suggesting that Stein only found out when his own son started playing? The chances of that are so remote as to be ridiculous, however doubtless someone will say that there's is a chance. Sunday 18 September 2005 Earlier this year, Christopher Norris, a youth coach with Morton FC, a Scottish second division side, was sentenced to three years' probation after admitting taking or permitting indecent photos of children at his home over an 18-month period. The photos, which were downloaded from the internet, showed boys as young as 10 being abused by adults.. Morton has a a *****phile at large in 2005, maybe someone should come up with a song to remind them? Maybe Dumbarton FC should sing something? Or would that just be pathetic. The Torbett trial was in 1998, where was the BJK campaign then? It did'nt exist because the dregs had plenty of leeway to sing their other poison, BJK was only though up after UEFA banned the Billy Boys.
Oh my you are a trier. You seem to have plenty of experience in raking through people's garbage, try finding out for yourself.
That's the main problem, you don't care about anything which does'nt back up your story. The 3 victims also stated Stein did not know, as did numerous other witnesses, ffs even the victim's parents did not know. Doubtless Tommy Sheridan would have said they were all lying. Only Birt was telling the truth? As we have shown he was sacked by CBC, he's a cracking witness right enough.
MATT BENDORIS Speaks to Alan Brazil Since then a section of Rangers fans have been blasted for singing 'Big Jock Knew' at games. The chant alleges former Scotland and Celtic boss Jock Stein, right, tried to cover up Torbett's sordid crimes. Me: "So did Big Jock know?" Alan says emphatically: "No chance. Big Jock wouldn't stand for any nonsense would he? "But I tell you who did know - The Kelly family who ran Celtic at the time. "They stood by him. One of the Kellys was even with Torbett in court. That p****d me off big style." Alan, who has three daughters Michelle, 25, Lucy, 23, and 17-year-old Stephanie with wife Jill, added: "I got lots of negative comments. "Even in court the judge asked me why I hadn't said something at the time. "It's not something you go home and say to your mum and dad 'guess what happened to me today?' Read more: http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/mattmeets/article2302640.ece#ixzz17psFa8xl Big Jock Did not know
THE OTHER SIDE OF PARADISE Scotland on Sunday 18/08/1996 Celtic Boys' Club appealed to the dreams of a generation of football hopefuls, but they have only made the tabloids in a seamy tale of manipulation and abuse, report AUDREY GILLAN and RON McKAY IT ALL begins in a shrine, the walls adorned with artefacts and relics, all carefully arranged and devoutly displayed, past which the faithful shuffled and nourished their own dreams of immortality. Here, paradise seemed tangible, just a short trip away. But the changing faces who gaped in awe at this display of devotion were gullible young boys who worshipped a team. They stared at the display of shirts and photographs, testimonials and autographs and believed the man who told them that they could look down from the window, across the city to the football ground in the East End and take all that lay before them. Jim Torbett was 20 when he set up Celtic Boys' Club in 1966, seeking permission from the then manager Jock Stein to use the team's name. He was only a few years older than the lads who trooped through his living room. Boys who left believing, as he did, in dreams, certain that they were special, marked out for fame. Now 30 years on, those dreams have become nightmares for some, grown men marked forever by the shy but enthusiastic man who took them to the heights and then the depths. John McCluskey is, in the unimpeachable judgment of former Celtic star Charlie Nicholas, the best young player he ever saw. Last week, McCluskey -who has fought drink, addiction and his own demons - was sitting in an upmarket Glasgow hotel, sipping cappuccino and waiting to make a statement to police that Torbett had sexually assaulted him. He had been so badly affected by the Dunblane massacre, he said, that he felt he had to make a stand. Just two days before, the Daily Record had spread across five pages allegations that the boys' club founder had abused him. His allegation was supported by Ally Brazil, the former Ipswich and Spurs striker, another graduate of the Celtic academy, who claimed that Torbett kissed and fondled him when he was only 14. Within hours of the story hitting the streets, and the newspaper setting up its abuse hotline, dozens of calls had come in and another man - Frank Cairney, the man who had been brought in by Jock Stein to get rid of the smears and innuendoes which for years had hung around the boys' club - was also being named as an abuser. Whispers that something was not quite right with Celtic Boys' Club had been around since its inception. Some boys passed through the ranks unscathed, ducking slaps on the bum and over-enthusiastic spongings when they lay injured on the pitch. But others are alleged to have suffered at the hands of a man who abused his position in pursuit of *****phile perversions. It seemed some of the weaker boys, those with less skill, less certain of a place on the first team, those with less parental guidance, became easy prey. They would be enticed back to Torbett's house with promises of meals and ice cream and sometimes less innocent pursuits would follow. When Fergus McCann finally arrived in the halo of television lights at Parkhead in 1994 he knew that he faced a formidable task: rebuilding a stadium, a team and the belief of a support which had seen years of failed promises and dismal performance. What he did not expect -by way of an anonymous letter sent to him almost as soon as he was through the door - was a disturbing report of years of abuse at the boys' club. Officially, the club was entirely separate from Celtic but McCann appreciated that it was inextricably bound to Parkhead in the minds of the public, and indeed in the hearts of some of the players and former players - like Peter Grant, Paul McStay and Tommy Burns - who had graduated from it to the big time of professional football. McCann quickly went about trying to establish the truth, or not, of the accusations. He called in Jim Torbett and asked him to meet Celtic's lawyers and confirm or deny, in an affidavit which could be passed to the police, the accusations. Torbett repeatedly refused. He asked Ally Brazil and John McCluskey to make their allegations formal. Brazil refused at that stage. McCluskey agreed, but only if his statement was not passed to the police. Ironically, McCann was playing out, more than three years on, a sad little tableau which had occurred at Parkhead under the old regime, ruled over by the Kelly and White families. In 1991 the boys' club had been to Kearney, New Jersey - an annual tour to the Irish part of the state with players staying at the homes of Catholic families -and one boy, no longer at Celtic but now a professional player in Scotland, had alleged to his hosts and to his own family that he had been assaulted by the team's general manager, Frank Cairney. The boy's father took him to Celtic Park to have it out with Liam Brady who was then only months in the job as team manager. The club's chief scout John Kelman was also present. It was Brady's first serious and most affecting problem in a troubled time at Parkhead which did not last long. He listened to the boy, believed him, and insisted to the board that Cairney had to be removed, not only from the boys' club but from any association with the main football club. So, overnight, the man who was used to having his run of the place and the ear of the management, was cast out. It was agreed, by Brady, the boy and his parents and the then Celtic board, that the police would not be informed. The young player was assured that the alleged incident would have no effect on his future career at the club. However, signed statements were taken by Celtic's lawyers from the four adults who had been on the New Jersey trip. All were sworn to silence.Cairney was now away from the football club and its nursery - business commitments was the given reason - but Jim Torbett was backplaying a major role, first as a fund-raiser then back with the boys' club. Torbett had maintained his connections with Celtic. Pre- McCann board member Kevin Kelly, still honorary president of the boys' club, is a fellow director of Torbett's company The Trophy Centre, and current board member Jack McGinn is an employee. It is not clear why a man widely regarded as a child abuser was allowed back into a position of responsibility at the boys' club. Torbett had been kicked out in 1976 after being confronted by the committee and, according to Frank Cairney's account of the meeting, had broken down in tears and confessed. He was then summoned to a meeting with Jock Stein, at the end of which the big man physically kicked him out of the door. And just to ensure that the boys' club stayed clean the legendary Celtic manager brought in another man, Hugh Birt, as chairman of its committee. Birt claims he was concerned about the behaviour of both Cairney and Torbett - who wheedled his way back in after Stein's death - and raised the matter with the club. Before he knew it Birt was asked to resign. When he stood his ground and refused, he says, Celtic withdrew his ticket to the directors' box and he had no option but to get out. In spite of all these troubles, the boys' club, from humble beginnings in a hall in Maryhill, had become a great success and was now seen as a crucial feeder of players for the senior club. It used Celtic's training ground at Barrowfield for coaching and matches and became one of the country's most successful nurseries: its more famous graduates include current manager Tommy Burns, George McCluskey, Roy Aitken, Charlie Nicholas, Paul McStay, and of the present side Peter Grant and Simon Donnelly. continued.....
But although the boys' club was hugely successful, rumours still continued to surround it. Former players began to talk to the press, although none would go on record or make a formal complaint to the police. The New Jersey incident in 1991 was successfully managed by the club and it seemed that nothing tangible would ever be proved. And then, in 1994, the new regime swept into Celtic Park and the rumours flared up again. This time, the chairman was determined that nothing should be kicked under the carpet. As McCann's investigation got under way, a lone Celtic fanatic Gerry McSherry, who resented the arrival of the new board, appeared on a radio programme to question the transfer of a young player. Within days he had received a number of calls suggesting untoward behaviour in the boys club. After months of investigation, McSherry began touting what he called the ***** Files round various newspapers and television companies and claims now to be under contract to the Record. Last week, as the story developed from allegations against Torbett - who was suspended from the boys' club six days ago - to claims that Cairney fondled boys as they sat in the front seat of his car, many men with long associations with the club began to grow uneasy. Former players backed Big Frank whom they knew as a "father figure" and Burns rushed out to Cairney's terraced home in Viewpark, Lanarkshire, after receiving a call from the man he considers a close friend. Leaving his house the manager was reported to have said: "He [Cairney] has the whole of my backing and that of Celtic Football Club to a man." The following morning Burns must have been wishing he had bitten his tongue. Incandescent at his manager's assumption that the club would back Cairney, McCann issued a statement. "While I sympathise with Tommy Burns' personal position as a friend of Mr Cairney, the club cannot condone or defend or take sides in a matter which involves a criminal complaint," he said. Burns himself claimed that he had been misquoted and what he had in fact said was: "He has my backing and I'm sure he will have the backing of several members of the first team who played for Frank at under-16 level." Meanwhile, the allegations against Torbett went unchallenged. After hiding out at the east end home of William and Andrew Gilbert - two young men who had played for the boys' club - he is said to have left the country. Yesterday, their mother Susan said that Torbett was a close family friend - they sometimes travelled abroad with him and the boys' club - and that the allegations made against him were rubbish. DCI John Boyd at London Road police station, who has four officers investigating the allegations, said that his team had been taking calls from a number of people who had not gone through the Daily Record. He added that the inquiry was at an early stage and that no arrests were imminent. At Celtic Park, the management is trying to keep its head down and stop the scandal interfering with play. Footballers like Peter Grant and Tosh McKinlay - who came through the boys' club route - have nothing to say on the record. And the boy who made the complaint against Cairney? He's playing his cards close to his chest. The chants from the terraces and jibes from his opponents would no doubt be too much to take. ------------------------[ Daily Record (Glasgow, Scotland); 11/7/1998; McILWRAITH, GORDON JOCK Stein and the Celtic board covered up allegations made against Boys' Club founder Jim Torbett, Mr Birt said: "There was a lot of hearsay and it wasn't until Jim came back that I got involved because things started up again." He told how he took the allegations against Torbett to the Celtic board and Stein and even told the then vice-chairman, Kevin Kelly, about them at a meeting in his car. He said: "Although there were people who spoke to me I couldn't go to the police without actual proof of the allegations. When I joined as chairman, I was told by Jock Stein to keep the name of Celtic Football Club clean at all times." Billy McNeil said, on oath in a court of law, "It was an open secret at Parkhead" 'An open secret' yet the man himself "Mr Celtic" that knew everything there was to know about Celtic never knew about Torbett? Let there be no doubt that Big Jock not only suspected what Torbett was up to, he KNEW exactly.
After all this time, I'm delighted that it still sticks in their craw that they'd go out of their way to make such arses of themselves over Mr Stein, the first Scottish manager to bring The Big One home. [video=youtube;pNeOJaY0eLs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNeOJaY0eLs[/video]
You are good at finding records Dev, why don't you find out who started the BJK chant? I believe it was not Rangers fans but a radio station, but really why do you get wound up so much?
I'll tell you why he gets wound up so much, he knows, they all know, and we all know they know. Big Jock Knew
We all know you're a pathetic bigot though Rocket. Thank **** that your generation will all be dead soon. You hopefully sooner than others. The fact that you are hell bent on causing a reaction with this shows you up for the empty loser you are. Your life has nothing apart from football and bigotry. What a complete waste of genetic material you are. They should have just flushed you when you were spawned. Would have saved me having to read all the pish you post
From my understanding, was the whole BJK stuff not started when 2 Labour MPs wanted Jock Stein to recieve a posthumous Knighthood... So, a campaign was started to ensure that he wouldn't receive it. At this time, Rangers fans started the chant. Somebody started the campaign as a form of protest (their right), Rangers fans chant it as a wind up... Once it was established that Jock Stein wouldn't recive the posthumous Knighthood the protest campaign, I belive, wound down. Rangers fans (and Hearts fans) continued to do it for no other reason, in my opinion, to wind up Celtic fans...hence lines like "he done it too, he was in the que" where added! I thought it had actually died out. It is rather sad an pathetic but unfortantley all football teams have their pathetic sad ****ers who stoop to low levels to wind others up over a game of football... Should you get wound up by a football chant? A lot of the people at football matches are ****s and I would not want to assoaciate with them - these are generally those who chant the "offensive" songs!
I thought it had died out as well, But Dev used BJ as an example of the referees always being against Celtic, all I said was "thats a bad example" next thing he is jumping about going mental and having a go about the BJK chants, seems Dev is just a typical paranoid tim, I'm sorry i even mentioned it, but since I have Dev has not shut up about it since, As for his opening question, Dev a Celtic fan has sung about the Ibrox disaster and what a great song it is [video=youtube;orIysW1r4tY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orIysW1r4tY[/video] Pud I never knew that's what started the BJK chants I thought it was Real radio away back in 2007, When pink you Knew song was on and at the end the presenter said BJK
Menniet you as I said before should just keep quiet unless you have anything useful to add, you again by your infantile rant show the evidence that you seldom (if ever) have anything worthwhile to add. I've already said who started the campaign, it was Follow Follow main man "Grandmaster Suck". ****ing idiot that you are, there is no such thing as "typical Tim" any more than there is a "typical Hun", there is however a typical, small-minded, festering with hate little pipsqeuak, mooching round the in crowd and you tick all the boxes.
Could not have put it better myself, the fact that some are happy to continue to argue the merits of this disgrace of a campaign just proves that they are beneath contempt. Just as well Rangers pleaded with the Press not to mention it EVER otherwise the whole of Britain would know just how low some will stoop.
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Rocket, when Torbett "came back" Jock Stein had long since died. Billy McNeill returned to Celtic in 1987,that's the period he was talking about, during his 2nd spell at the club, Torbett never returned until Jock left so when McNeill says it was an open secret not only was he talking about when he was manager he also makes it clear that they were only "rumours", even Birt said he had no "Proof". Even Mr Birt says that he could not go to the poice because he had no "Proof". Beacuse you suspect something does not mean you "know" because it has not been confirmed. In all of the victim evidence all of them said they told NO ONE about the abuse, if the victims told NO ONE, and Torbett told NO ONE, who told Big Jock? Are you honestly suggesting Billy McNeill would slander the name of Big Jock? Honestly? All you are doing is misintepreting and misquoting Cesar's words to suit your case. Here's the thing though, Who told Big Jock? If he knew, then either someone one told him or he witnessed it? Which is it? Who told him?
So what is this sick campaign against Jock Stein all about? Well - in a nutshell, fans of Rangers FC, by no longer being allowed to sing anti-Catholic songs, had to invent another way to hate. They had to find another outlet to vent their hatred of Celtic FC. So they invented a lie that implicated the late Celtic manager, Jock Stein, as being involved in covering up child abuse in the early 1970's. The term "Big Jock Knew" implies that Jock Stein knew about cases of child abuse, but did not act upon it. This not only is a great lie, it is also the sickest, most despicable and worst kind of point scoring imaginable. This goes way beyond football rivalry. But that is what you get when you give people decades of opportunity to sing songs of hate and then all of a sudden take it away from them. The fact that Jock Stein won the European Cup for Celtic, something Rangers FC have not been able to achieve, is another reason to single him out for this cruel form of hatred.
I have to be honest, 2 of my favourite songs are BJK and the famine song, you can't say that there aren't catchy.
