Exactly my point. We had it even in the 70's and 80's. We dont have it now. That says everything you could possibly need to ever know about this. All I am going to say is that its mind boggling and borderline insane that anyone would like Moyes to remain.
That's not your point at all. Your point is that Moyes has destroyed the era of Manchester United, as if we always had one. We didn't. The only aura of invincibility we had was under Ferguson, created by Ferguson with him at the centre of it, it was not there before he arrived. What Diego is actually pointing out is that the only aura United had pre Fergie was in the heads of the support, it certainly didn't exist with the teams playing us as we got rolled over with alarming regularity. Old Trafford definitely did not create any fear in the opposition. Teams will have sensed a vulnerability in United as soon as Fergie stepped down, regardless of who took over.
Yeh I very much doubt that. You telling me that if Pep, Jose, Ancelotti etc had come then we would be having the same sort of season. Being dicked by small clubs regularly and being hammed by all but 1 of our rivals. All that happened because Fergie left? Did it ****. It happened because we made a ****** move hiring an incapable manager and the rest of the football world are laughing their ****ing heads off at us. I would say last season, van Persie created our fear. A few years ago it was ronaldo, before that Ruud, Cantona, Yorke, Scholes, Giggs etc etc..... If we signed messi tomorrow then half the league would **** themselves. The fear came from our play.l Like liverpool do now we used to tear domestic sides to shreds. 200mph counter attacking football ( the best football ever played in the Premier League by a ****ing mile I might add ) that teams just couldnt cope with. In the 2000's we have changed to a more continental holding game and we lost alot of our fear through that. Around 2007 we went back to 200MPH counter attacking football and guess what, we were feared across europe. So while Fergie certainly played a part. The team, the tactics and the way we played was as much a part. theres loads of managers who could have done that. Literally loads. We chose the worst possible candidate.
I was a bit young to be there but I remember the atmosphere that weekend, had my first ever United top (the one with the loopy white around the sleeve) wore it that whole weekend playing football with my mates. Had the whole road to wembley book with stickers lol.
Bollocks. Whoever replaced Ferguson would have had the very same problem in that teams visiting would be fully aware that the 'Fergie factor' was no longer there. You mention those players, who was the common factor? Who was their boss? An element of United's perceived invincibility was stripped the minute Fergie walked out, before Moyes walked in. You blame Moyes for everything, it is very, very strange.
Was at the match, got two tickets from Horwich RMI as my brothers mate played for them semi pro. Turns out they are for the Everton end but we managed to swap with two Everton fans, for seats down the front. The row of seats collapsed when Norman scored , we were clambering the fence. Seems strange to think about being fenced in at Wembley.
Agree with this, that aura was definitely in the minds of the fans, the feeling of a special club with its history and even the players of the time seemed a bit special but not necessarily feared by other teams. Not sure about the last bit because that sense of vulnerability in United started before Fergie stepped down, imo about 3/4 years ago. As the last of big United players were gradually replaced by lesser players in midfield and on the wings, you could see the mindset of teams and their willingness to have a go at United at Old Trafford from about 2010/2011. Even though Moyes has struggled and so has the team, particularly at Old Trafford, it didn't begin with him, despite everyone wanting us to believe the myth that it did.
There seem to be a lack of objectivity in your thinking. I agree with Chief that the fear factor or whatever this means was not always there. We were the biggest stadium and the biggest home support for decades. And until the premiership, under Toomy Doc, sexton, Big Ron and even early Fergie, we were regulary "dicked" as you say by small teams. No fear factor then and certainly no aura of invincibility. The aura of invincibility comes from winning full stop. Nothing to do with Fergie or anyone else. It was bound to happen that players coming under the influence of another manager no longer have that hunger and cohesion. One thing I think could have been avoided was not to get rid of the coaches so quickly. He could have left some of them in place this season. But it was understandable that he wanted his own team. One thing is certain. While many of the players were good under Fergie, under Moyes they just are not good enough. If we were to keep Moyes, then we have to bring several top players in. And we have to have a few players who can make the difference in tight matches so that we do not get "dicked" by small or big teams.
I blame the club for hiring moyes ( Fergie for insisting on him for whatever reason. ). I dont blame Moyes in the slightest for taking the job but every tactical decision, every poor substitution, every gutless defeat and every cock up within Moyes control... yes I blame him. Hes the one man at the club with the power to change this. Or he should be. Im not the one putting fergie on a pedestal. For me he was great but he part of a great club. Its as if you are saying Fergie was United and without him we are nothing. Lets just sit back and accept **** managers, **** results and while were at it lets blame the players entirely for it all the bunch of utter ****s. Hell they are probably all scousers in disguise, freed from the evil Saf..... ( (I know thats not the case with you ruff, im just making a point. ) We'll call this one of those times where we disagree
Many of the players currently at Liverpool were not good enough under hodgeson or Dalglish. Now they are top of the league. Whats changed? The players or the manager? Its the latter of course. Barcelona were invincible under Pep. Under other managers ( random, unproven nobodies I might add, similar to ourselves, barcelona tried to be special and its backfired ) they were getting raped by germans. What changed? The manager. The wrong manager never comes good. ever. Pick the wrong guy to lead and well..... you are ****ed. A bit like us. 10 months ago..... United, PL best squad, Champions with ease, should have beat real Madrid and perhaps got to the CL final. We needed a few additions and the new season was looked forward to by all. Today - 7th in the PL, top 4 near enough gone, out of europe, failed in both cups, record number of defeats, our 3rd highest ever spending in our entire history, no confidence, half the squad needs replacing and some of our fans genuinely think we are ****. 10 months.......10 ****ing months...... because one man left? Get to ****.
If Moyes had won his first ten games or so Prem games at Old Trafford like Mourinho or Pellegrini did this season, do you think you would have kept some of the Old Trafford/Fergie fear factor. I think you would.
That is incredible isn't it? Howver, in all your examples of successful managers none of them had been in charge (and I mean TOTAL UNQUESTIONING charge , like a dictatorship) for 26 years ! In a way United have come to rely far too much on Fergie. The players, the coaches, the executive. I am not saying Moyes will be here for the next six years. What I was saying is that it was too early to sack him. Whether we like it or not, we need to bring top players. Many are not good enough or are not performing whether it is Moyes or not. And to quote the very first example you gave, Tikitaka was seen as absolutely useless for the ******ed scousers and he was given some more time even though in his first season he finished 8th.
WRONG! Fergie delegated so many of his tasks in later years. He was the master motivator, coaches believe it or not did the...... yes yes..... the coaching. The tactics came from his assistants ( obviously they didnt just say, this is how we play but they gave the plans and Fergie used them as and when ). Thats how fergie rolled.
Speaking from experience from a club that has been there recently... You DON'T want to lose fear factor. ... you don't want to be a "big club" that "small clubs" see as an easy target. "Small Clubs" like nothing more than beating "Big Clubs" even if they are having a rough patch- getting the scalp of a club more frequent at the top end of the table is always a big reward and ego boost for them. In recent years "small clubs" have put up much more resistance against Liverpool than other "big clubs" (or their peers) because we looked like an easy way to bag a prestigious scalp. It would always frustrate me to see a club go against United and look defeated before they kicked the ball... and then play Liverpool the next week and play like their lives depended on it. Yeah... we haven't been good enough recent years- but because we lacked fear factor, small teams viewed us as cup finals that they couldwin. Fear Factor is very relevant. I'm glad we've got it back. For United, you've now got to work harder and be better to get the same points that would have been easy a year ago...
More than a year ago. The fear factor has been a process of erosion over 3 to 4 years. It's just come to the fore this season bcos of a loss of Fergie's relentlessness. You can look at signs of it over the last few seasons.
Hmmmm. Real Madrid seemed to have some fear of United last season and Bayern looked petrified at Old Trafford at times. certainly had that fear factor in europe. We were also wining games from behind, in the last minute and all the glorious stuff United do just 12 months ago..... trust me, teams feared us. we just didnt know when to give up. Moyes however, he didnt know when to give up, immediately and without a fight. United have no fear factor Stick Pep, Klopp or Jose in charge and see what people say then. Its would stink of **** people would be that scared.
Remember 08-09 when Livpl beat us at OT. Then after that every team had a go at us e.g. the game at Fulham, they beat us, Scholes gets sent off. A season or so later iirc, Hull came to OT and attacked, they went 3-0 down I think but didn't give up their attack and almost pulled it off with the score finishing 4-3. What about the two dreaded results against Everton and Wigan that gifted the title to City. Or the 6-1 home defeat to City that season? What about Leeds coming to OT and beating us in the FA Cup? What about being knocked out of the CL in the group stages by lesser teams than Real Madrid? I can find other examples as well, but those are games off the top of my head where teams specifically came to try and beat us, or at least have a go. The fear factor has definitely been slipping and it's no coincidence it's got progressively worse in line with our midfield and defence.
And did Villa have a fear factor that day??? As I said, there have been signs of it over several seasons. The glorious midfield talent slowly disappeared, the defence which was sublime up to about 2009 also started to deteriorated. It was the strength of those things that brought about our fear factor. Those were the things that made opposition teams look across in the starting line up and believe they'd lost before they'd even kicked a ball. Over the last 4 years or so, they've looked at our players, our style of football, and thought "we can get at this lot." The last modicum of fear that remained to hold the tide back was Fergie, that's all.
