Sgt, I think an RBR facepalm is required here please log in to view this image edit: and one for me for screwing up the link..............
"We are appealing on the grounds that we do not believe, we are extremely confident, that we have not broken the rules, that we haven't exceeded the 100kg/h of fuel that is permitted to be utilised by the car and the engine," Horner told Sky Sports News' Rachel Brookes. "So that was the reason for our appeal, we feel we have a strong case and it will be down to the appeal court to ultimately decide." Live on Sky Sports Live Formula One 2014 Malaysian Grand Prix March 30, 2014 8:00am Get a Sky Sports Day PassUpgrade to Sky Sports The World Champions argument centres on the wording of the FIA's Technical Regulations with Article 5.1.4 stating "Fuel mass flow must not exceed 100kg/h". However, as it does not say that this reading has to come from the FIA's sensor Red Bull feel they can use their own measurements to prove they did not breach the regulations. "Our whole case is on the fact of which reading is correct," the Team Principal added. "We have a sensor that is drifting and isn't reading correctly versus a fuel rail that we know is calibrated and we know that hasn't varied throughout the weekend and has subsequently been checked and found to be not faulty and hasn't moved or varied at all since it was installed on the car prior to the weekend. "Our argument is very simple - that we haven't broken the Technical Regulations. That we haven't exceeded the fuel flow limit and that the sensor, which hopefully we will be able to demonstrate in the appeal, is erroneous. "I think the problem with the Technical Directive is that as we have seen in the Pirelli tyre case or the double diffuser days, that the directive, as it now states on the bottom of the directive, is the opinion of the Technical Delegate - it is not a regulation, it is not regulatory, it is purely an opinion. "We are bound by the Technical and Sporting Regulations. 5.1.4 of the Technical Regulations says you must not exceed 100kg/h of fuel usage - we haven't done that. Therefore our view is we haven't broken the regulations and Technical Directives are of non-regulatory value." Horner: I once heard this â Cheating is not an accident. An accident is when you fall off your bike, not when you accidentally fall into someone's vagina!
If the position became inconclusive because of the grey area that RBR are pointing to, as Ricciardo was not aware of the unfolding dilema during the race, would the best resolution be for him to keep his WDC points, but Red Bull to lose their WCC points? This has happened in the past, usually where there has been fuel irregularity issues.
if Ricciardo didnt know what was going on I am in favour of him keeping his points too. But Red Bull knew... the team was told, everyone was told .... so they should pay the penalty.
The argument has already been presented that Red Bull may well have gained a performance advantage with Ricciardo's car, regardless of whether he himself was aware of it. (Personally, I very much doubt Ricciardo had the slightest idea anything was amiss). Whilst I fully appreciate the well-intended sentimentality of allowing a supposedly innocent driver to keep his points, Miggins makes perhaps an even better point!
If Red Bull do get away with this will the FIA rules be re-written? Otherwise the outcome is essentially run what ever fuel rate you wish, just make sure your sensors say 100kg/hr, and don't worry, they don't have to be FIA approved sensors or anything
well, the thing is, they have the FIA sensor fitted, otherwise how the hell would the FIA know what it's readings were, they have not fitted their own, as that would be illegal and an unappealable DSQ. I'm of the opinion that they have implemented some form of mechanical restrictor which can control the fuel flow which the believe to be accurate. If RBR prove their case, which, tbh, seems quite possible, it does throw up the spectre of everyone doing it, and every race result being preliminary, but the blame has to fall on the FIA and Gillsensors.
Cosi, I was thinking back to a few races in the 90's, Brazil 95 I think, when Williams and Benetton had fuel irregularities but it couldn't be proven if there was a performance advantage or not so the drivers kept the points, but the teams lost theirs. In this situation, if neither side can prove that the other was at fault, i.e FIA will say they ignored orders but if Red Bull can show that they were still within the limits, Ricciardo could keep the points, but RBR lose theirs as a deterrent for ignoring an FIA request. Just trying to think what the best (political) outcome could be so neither side loses face and this doesn't rumble on and ruin the season already.
For me RBR have to conclusively prove they were under the limit, if they do that then they must be reinstated, if they don't then the result as it is now must stand and Ricciardo stay DSQ, they can't both be right, andthe onus of proof is on RBR. At the end of the day it's up to the court of arbitration to decide if red bulls method of measurement is infallible and the measurements are accurate, we already know the FIA's aren't, that's been made pretty clear. But how much confidence RBR have in their argument we'll only know this weekend from what they do when they get asked to lower their fuel rate.
Red Bull Disqualification Share237Tweet3 Teams aware of sensor issue in January - Boullier ESPN Staff March 19, 2014 « Mercedes can be caught - Renault | Red Bull formally lodges appeal » Eric Boullier has little sympathy for Red Bull's position © Sutton Images Enlarge RELATED LINKS News: Red Bull out in the cold as rivals back FIA Feature: Red Bull ... saint or sinner? Race: Australian Grand Prix McLaren racing director Eric Boullier has revealed it was clear to all the teams on the grid that the fuel-flow sensor issue might need managing as early as January this year. Red Bull chose to use its own fuel-flow sensor on Daniel Ricciardo's car in Melbourne, falling foul of the FIA's regulations and warnings that their own sensor must be used, leading to Ricciardo being disqualified from second. Red Bull has been firm in its belief that the FIA's equipment is unreliable but Boullier does not believe there should have been any confusion surrounding the regulations.
So did red bull use it's own fuel flow sensor or the FIA's fuel flow sensor? I am getting confused....
I am thinking both... but I am not 100% on that. If only their own, then they are on a wild goose chase.
I am sure I read a few articles where they said red bull brought its own sensor which was being used on Ricciardo's car. Now...I haven't heard Horner mentioned anything else but FIA sensor..so I am at a loss as to whose sensor red bull used on Ricciardo's car. The next question is: why would they use it on Ricciardo's car and not on Vettel's? Is it a case of trying a stroke and if you win you win, but don't take the chance on the world champion' car? I don't know, I just find the whole thing strange. If they thought the FIA sensors were faulty well why wouldn't they have use the red bull sensors on both cars?
no, they are using the FIA's, only one is allowed to be fitted, and it has to be the FIA one, it's the same one they used on the first days practice that was proven to be a bit dodge. I surmise that there are other ways of measuring the flow rate, or a way to restrict it to the maximum allowed, that doesn't contravene a technical regulation, and I'm assuming it's that that RBR are going to use as their defence. There isn't anything illegal with the car, as far as I'm aware, it's what happened during the race that is in question. The rule is you aren't allowed to use more than 100kg/h, not you aren't allowed to use over 100kg/h as measured by the sensor. Of course it's pretty obvious that that is what it is supposed to be measured, and regulated, by, but it doesn't actually say it is. If the sensor had worked properly as it was supposed to, there would be no problem, but there is a problem, and I think it's quite a bit worse than the FIA are letting on, so the wording was picked apart and the loop-hole found. At the end of the day that is what F1 engineering is about, loophole exploitation.
This is where I'm confused as to how RBR were calculating their fuel flow during the race, unless they'd calculated how for out the sensor was and then compensated accordingly based off the data from it. As far as I understand, fuel flow can't exceed 100kg per hour at any given time, so they would have to stay within that? No? The rule states that only one FIA sensor can be fitted. It doesn't state that an alternate sensor cannot also be applied as far as I understand it.
Miggins wouldn't the argument be that if red bull is allowed to maintain their place that the other teams would have been at a disadvantage for following the instruction of race control? Because say button and his team mate were to have run the same like Ricciardo's wouldn't they have been able to catch him? If as they say all the teams might have had a similar problem but they followed race control instructions surely they would have been at a disadvantage through no fault of their own....they could have ignored instructions too and risk disqualification...I don't know..this is going to be very interesting. But what will happen if red bull wins is that you are going to find teams ignoring instructions from race control and FIA more frequently and they will surely cause a lot of problems.
I believe that Red Bull and the other teams calculate fuel flow by using a fuel pressure sensor and the engine management system. i.e. they know the fuel pressure, they know fuel density and they know the fuel flow that the injectors flow per second. They also know the duration of the injection pulse so by using the pressure, density, injector flow rate and injection duration they can calculate the flow. This is the same way as most modern cars fuel computers work, although normal ones in cars are not very well calibrated at all, they are, in my opinion calibrated to flatter fuel consumption
