Yes there is a reason to blame the sports council, the £3m to move the athletics track would be the same no matter what size of stadium was built! They did not fund the stadium itself at all, they just said that if we built a 25k stadium there would be no grant!
Well explain to be how 5,000 fans in a 25,000-30,000 stadium creates a great atmosphere. I've been to football matches that were packed and ones that were almost empty. The packed ones always have the best atmosphere. Maybe you think differently, but that's how it is for me. Also, it is sometime necessary to build a smaller stadium. If your club is going downhill and your fans are deserting you, why wouldn't you build a smaller stadium? Smaller stadiums and cheaper and it's a waste of money if you can't fill a big stadium. Anyway, we have what we have, so we need to find a solution. Debating what happened in the past isn't going to help. Huw seems to have a solution in mind. Whether it's right or wrong is another matter. What size stadium do you think the Swans need? If they don't do well this season, then the novelty of being in the Premier League will wear off very quickly. I do agree that the stadium design should have allowed room for expansion. I just don't think it should have been built big to begin with. But if we go straight back down and then get 15,000 average gates for the next 20 years, then the decision will seem right. So hindsight does come into it.
But you can't build a stadium with that in mind, you have got to build one with eventualities in mind , the liberty is fine for all leagues apart from the premier, anyone can see this now, but its not fit for purpose, and when we are getting 15.5k on average with most of those being swans fans, it doesn't leave you a lot of room if we go up
Once again Bangkok your argument over the difference in atmosphere over a 25,000 seater and a 20,000 is just not worthy of debate, if we were comparing this issue to a 40,000 seater then you might get an audience, where atmosphere would be discernibly different. Also your argument regarding building a smaller stadium, is only applicable to a decreasing market, which is not the case, where the football game market has increased over the decades, you are mixing up the acute situation of the club in the hands of one numpty(Petty)with it's disastrous effect on our team and terraces with progress and expansion, and you can't use the dire petty era as a reason to build a small stadium, anyway your reasoning goes against the advice of the time of planning, in which it was seen that we needed at least a 25,000 seater stadium, and if you had read the article correctly, you would not be rationalising the way you are!............. please log in to view this image
Yes, you need to take eventualities in mind, but you also have to be realistic. At the time probably no-one thought we would ever get to the Premier League. Even a year or two ago, most fans on forums were saying the Swans weren't good enough. If every club built a 40,000 stadium just in case they got into the Premier League, then there's be a lot of 40,000 stadiums with crowds of 5,000. Yes, we need a bigger stadium now, but it didn't look very likely at the time that it was built. When it was built, did you really think that we'd get to the Premier League this quickly, or at all. I know it's been an aim, but I haven't met anyone who though it would actually come true. Well, not until the last year or two. You have to consider where we were when it was built. If it was obvious that we'd be in the Premier League soon, do you really think it wouldn't have been bigger? Not everyone's perfect and I'm sure these people made what they thought was the best decision at the time. It's done, so let's move on and find a solution.
Even last season, we got a 15k average. 10k empty seats in a 25k stadium? That´s 40% unfilled... as opposed to the 25% unfilled last season, and even then that was our best average attendance for years. Basically, they went safe again, which is pretty much what I´ll always want them to do!
Listen Bangkok from the moment we moved into the stadium, we have progressively filled it! and for years some of us could see there would one day be an issue, we put up enough articles over the years on the old BBC 606, on the subject of the Liberty design, and whether it had been designed for expansion or not, rumours abounded that this had been built into the design, but on further examination it was revealed that it was recommended, but not implemented, such short sightedness will now cost the club, because I'm sure that if we stay up then, we would easily fill a 30,000 seater stadium, and that extra 10,000 seats would earn the club an estimated £8 million over two seasons, which is the loss of revenue that I estimate the club will now lose!.................... please log in to view this image For Scotty "NEIL McClure, the former Swansea City chairman, came out of the woodwork this week to give his take on where it all went wrong for the Liberty Stadium." "When we were planning the original Morfa Stadium, we planned for a 25,000-seat stadium," he explained. "But time and time again I was told that this was too large. 'How many people are you getting at the Vetch?' the people from the Welsh Sports Council and their ilk would ask. "'Build it and they will come,' I would reply. "If only the "know-alls" who controlled the grants had the imagination to understand that if Swansea get to the Premiership, as surely they will do, 40,000 seats will not be enough." - NEIL McClure He stated this in 2009!!!.............. please log in to view this image
I have obviously misunderstood you. If you saying it should have been 25k instead of 20k, then you're probably right, because there isn't much difference. I thought you wanted a much bigger stadium initially. So I think we agree. LOL. I also agree that building a smaller stadium only applies to clubs in decline. But you originally said "Anyone who builds a stadium, with less capacity than the Previous one is a numpty". So I assumed you meant ANYONE. So now we agree on both issues. But I did read the article properly.
I agree with your reasoning, but do you really think we could have 30,000 average crowds? Spurs only have 35,000 and they finished 5th. Another thing that makes me thing it's unlikely (though not impossible) is that in the Championship this season, our attendance was the 15th highest. If we had 30,000 in Premier League, then we'd be 12th best supported team (or thereabouts). It just seems a big jump. That's 15,000 extra every match. Do you really think 30,000 will turn up to see Wolves, Wigan, etc. It would be great if they did, but I can't really see it. We got promoted this season and the crowds were still pretty abysmal. I just can't see how that will change. I would be very happy to be proved wrong, but I just can't see it.
The crowd issue is always a debate, but if we are to develop into a well supported medium size club, then we have to be looking for gates of 25, to 30 thousand, I don't see this as unattainable, you have to remember that the petty era did a lot of damage, and it is only now that we are getting sustainable growth year on year, Sousa did some damage last year, with his negative football, but when you look at the catchment area of 2 million people split between just 2 clubs then we really should be developing for a minimum of 25,000 average gate, and that can be achieved by better marketing and common sense ticket management. It certainly will have improved our progress if we turn these extra thousands of new fans this season into long time supporters, but how do you advance your fan base with such a small stadium? I pretty sure that we could have sold at least another 5000 seats! so it will be interesting to see what the Swansea board will do to address the seating issue, of course if we come back down, then the glory fans will disappear into the night, but if we do stay up, then success breads success, and the pressure will be on, for much more seats. Finally remember this that the Welsh public are desperate for some success on the field of play, and you can see that from the way that both Cardiff and Swansea are progressing these last 10 years. Yes I really do, because there is a great demand for Premiership football in Wales, be that Wigan, or Chelsea, I agree with NEIL McClure, when he said "Build it and they will come,"......................... please log in to view this image
If this stadium wasn't built we wouldn't be in the PL. We can build but its the cost. If we start today it will take two years with planning and build. To increase the stadium by 10k is going to cost £15mil plus Today sounds good but will it in two years time? Remember the old East Stand and what happened when that was built at the Vetch
If we can add say 3k extra seats in the liberty without major structural changes next season, we should do it regardless on what league we are in I think, if we stay up though and are selling out I really think it should then be looked at again with major changes or new stadia
The last time we were in the top flightin our first game against Leeds drew 25 K fans,Thereafter we never reached that figure even though we topped the division and were never out of the top six,finishing 6th.Not even Man Utd {who we beat 2-0} or Liverpool could coax the Swansea public to the Vetch. Next season the novelty ran out and poor attendances and performances resulting in relegations right down the leagues and finances dropped and we ended up in the mire.Huw Jenkins is right to be cautious about developing the ground and concentrating on team performance first. We don't want history to repeat itself.
kalispera Peter you have got me very jealous, I see you are in Hania, spent a lot of time down that end of the island, in a beautiful village called GEORGIOUPOLIS, loved the peaceful village atmosphere, and it was convenient for Rethymnon, or Hania, though I have stayed in Hania just a few yards up from the Harbour front, have a retsina on me mate, and don't tell me you have retired out there or I will be gutted, if there is one place on planet earth, I would love to retire to, it would be Georgioupolis, man I miss crete!.............. please log in to view this image
we have a stadium in brisbane that is used for football, league and union, it holds 55,500, it closes off the upper tier so still maintains the atmosphere even if 20-25000 turn up
If you look at the MK dons stadium you would see a stadium built for the future, if they progress and their fan base increases they can add 10k more seats without any structural changes, if things further changes a further 12k seats can be added in new tiers . Truly I think that is what should have done with us
The answer is simple - or should have been. People arguing on different sides of the coin are correct. What SHOULD have been done, however, is that the architects ought to have been commissioned to build a 20k stadium but one that could be extended, at reasonable cost, to accommodate a further 5/10k spectators if and when required. That this was not done truly amazes me. It shows such a lack of foresight and thoughtless planning that it beggars belief. We have literally built ourselves into an economic cul-de sac because the main players at the time appear to me to have had their heads stuck up their backsides. Amateurish, negligent and downright stupid are some of the adjectives that come readily to my mind.
The question has got to be asked though, exactly how much input did the swans and ospreys have in the design of the stadium? You can't really blame the builders are architects though, they get commissioned to plan and build it, probably a number of plans were made to give choice, and after careful consideration of the designs, and seeing which one would suit the clubs, they chose the cheapest!
Pete from Crete, disagree slightly, mate. I was a season ticket holder and the big games were COMPLETELY sold out. I remember on several occasions getting into the ground but not being able to actually see the pitch. On the North Bank the crowd were jammed in the entrance tunnels and were going nuts because they couldn't get onto the terraces. Without going into the whole story, I actually left the ground, went to the other side and watched the game standing up behind the seats of the South stand. I accuse no one of anything but it was pretty common in football in those days for attendances to be routinely under-declared - can't imagine why!! I know the then Board have moaned that we never filled the ground. I could put it more strongly but based on personal experience, and I have many mates who had the same problem, that statement is a complete and utter load of bilge.
Dragon - I hope you are right about the crowds. It would be great if Swansea could make progress in the Premier League and grow their fan base. I think one problem Wales have is that it's a rugby nation, but Premier League football may change that, especially among the kids. If Cardiff get promoted as well, we'd have Man U and others coming to Wales twice. I agree that the Swans could build a fan base long-term. But I'm still skeptical about games like Swans v Norwich. And also we didn't sell out matches even when we were on the verge of promotion. I hope you're right.
