In terms of how far back on the grid they've won from. Sorry, my bad, but yes - in that Red Bull, aged 23, both of them could have at least matched what Vettel achieved. In five years' time I might look back on this period and say, "ok, I didn't see it at the time but it was quite clear even then that Vettel is the greatest driver that's ever lived," but I doubt it. Vettel is what happens when you design a really great car.
Oh yes genji I agree, a really great car, but I'm sure you'll agree the Renault R25+R26+MP4-22+MP4-23 were all top of the line cars just like we are seeing now. It's something we all have to deal with, having little punks get the best seats
Well you are insinuating that he is not a good driver and if you believe that then you have sort of proved yourself wrong because if a 'bad' driver can come third in the WDC last year and is currently running 3rd in this years WDC then the car he is driving must be bloody good.
No, dont try to twist my words. All i was saying is that it never takes a great car alone to make a world champion.
Actually, no. None of those cars had the advantage over the competition that the RB7 has and the RB6 had. A great car can make a world champion. What a great car can't do is make a great driver.
2005 season, Fernando was involved in 18 races (didn't start in the USA), 15 of them he was on the podium finishing 21 points (45 on modern day points) infront of Kimi. Alonso had a better record in 2006 than vettel does this year so far, halfway through that season he finished (1st)=6 times and (2nd)=3 times Lewis Hamilton comes in on his rookie season and finishes on the podium 9 races in a row, if the RB6 is classified a dominant car so is that.
The thing is that the RB6 and RB7 have been at times well over half a second quicker than any other car, I do not think any other car has been that dominant since 2004.
2010+2011 Red Bull cars have been blown out of proportion IMO compared to others after the Ferrari years. We'll never know how much faster the Renault or the McLarens were in qualifying because they all had different fuel stratergies to work around.
Well that's fair enough and in the end that's all we're arguing about - each other's opinion. Regarding Renault's 2005 'dominance' though, you surely know the answer to that?
That's very true, not trying to step on anybody elses opinion. As I always do, just chucking out the stats and facts regarding the previous years and nothing more than a small bit "friendly" debate
Hungary 06 for Alonso - after starting 15th, he dominated and owned the other drivers with a stunning opening lap (imo better than Senna in Donington 93). Alonso would have easily won that race if it wasn't for the wheel nut. Even though he retired, that's the sort of drive that cements his position with the greats, and puts him in a league way above Vettel. While I admit Vettel has had some good drives in his TR days, it's the wins that count - none of his wins are special - all 15 of his victories came from starting 3rd or higher. He had the fastest car by a clear margin. In fact, the only race where Red Bull weren't competitive was Monza, and Vettel looked very average there. I wouldn't say he outclassed his rivals - his car did that. Also, the number of Championship rivals is irrelevant - if anything, it just makes things easier because all the rivals are always taking points off each other. I don't believe those were the fastest cars between 05-08. The R25 wasn't as quick as the McLaren, and whether the R26 was fastest in 2006 is also debatable. Not trying to make Alonso look better than he is, but just making the point that Alonso had to work a lot harder for his titles than Vettel did in 2010. From 2005 onwards, the fastest car hasn't had the advantage that Vettel had last year, and still has now. Some of Vettel's pole positions are just ridiculous, and even when he has an average lap he still get's pole. Nothing to do with driver ability, but just that his car is better - so he can carry more speed into the corners. His big advantage means that better drivers aren't able to beat him. Just look at Brundle's Alonso vs Vettel feature before the Canada race. Where the cars are equally matched, Alonso is slightly ahead - but then Vettel get's on the throttle a lot earlier and gains an advantage. Getting on the throttle earlier has nothing to do with driver skill, it's just that his car is much better. Vettel then locks up at the hairpin but still manages to keep an advantage.
You think it is because of Vettel and not the car that he can go through corners others can't with the DRS open and get on the throttle much earlier?
Mark Webber is struggling to adapt to Pirelli tyres, which explains why he is so far from Vettel this year - so in effect, he is underperforming, rather than any magic coming from Vettel. In 2009 and 2010, Webber was a lot closer to Vettel while they were both happy with the car - so this is a much better indication of driver ability. Vettel is still a good qualifier, but his car is much better than McLaren and Ferrari so it doesn't take much from him to beat them. Vettel's car produces the magic, and Vettel simply takes the credit his car deserves.
I'm pretty sure Webber himself has come out and said he is not getting the best out of the tyres. tomcat - They were closely matched for most of last year and 2009, so its not like Vettel has suddenly become 1s a lap faster than Webber for no good reason.
Spain was special for vettel, no Kers for half the grand prix, Lewis having DRS and KERS breathing down his neck, special grand prixs can come under "great performances" rather than just going from back of the grid to the front, that's being biased. So if that's how you think "greats" are catagorised, Jenson's Canadian win last week must make him a "greater" driver than Sebastian and Alonso put together since he actually won it compared to Hungary 06. Sorry but in my books a "great driver" turns up on all days and not just Sunday. Don't blame Seb if he's the only one able to nail it day in day out. Every pole and win is special because he has outdone everybody and he got the maximum. Spa, Abu Dhabi, China, Canada. All the tracks there, they were weaker. I think it's easier to win a WDC if you only have 1 person to worry about the whole season, Alonso showed that in 05,06 when he won and 07 when he lost, he should of been watching Kimi not Lewis. Same thing goes for 2010, he should of been marking Seb and he blew it marking Webber. The R25 had great reliability unlike the McLaren and yet it still was very quick, overall that car was better than the McLaren. Alonso also had the upper hand against Schumacher because of the Michelin tyres in 2006. So saying he worked harder when infact it looked like the tyres won it. And I'll repeat IMO the MP4-22 was a bigger advantage than the RB6 ever was, I repeat, a rookie gets on the podium 9 races in a row and that thing isn't considerd at all once, a dominant car. Trollop!, this is all a cheap shot to make on the RB6 since Newey designed it, last time I check it wasn't a bunch of monkeys designing the other cars. How do we all know that Vettel just didn't wring the neck of that thing and Mark was in his prime? Too much is looked in qualifying performance rather than race that it's getting boring. Seb made one mistake at Canada where Alonso went "slower" for a few corners, which Seb on the other hand nailed. Red Bulls weakest track and he still put it on pole, sorry but maybe vettel can just carry more momentum through corners than Alonso. He also had more confidence going towards the wall of champions. Wasn't average, was pritty much bang on identical. Monaco, a track where racecraft and balls are needed to nail a great lap, he goes out and does it with Ferrari and McLaren having better mechanical grip than the Red Bulls. And here we are again.........it's a "Mans Track" when somebody else does a great job, but it's all the car when Seb crosses the line quickest, double standards and spilt milk for having to eat their own words when he shuts a group up for another week. Edit: This isn't a pop at anybody, I just don't understand how the RB6 goes down as "dominant" but the R-25/26 and more so than the others... the MP4-22 don't. This is quickly becoming: "Anything Newey makes gives you a free WDC". You're me buddy Forza but I cant stop seeing the statistics of the cars before Red Bull being just as strong.
