OK, want to tread carefully here.....saw a very moving documentary on ITV (first time I have watched anything but CL on there for years...) last night - talking heads of striking miners and their wives, non striking miners, a couple of Met policemen and Michael Heseltine (briefly) talking 30 years after the event. I was out of the country (didn't even come home on holiday) between 1983 and late 1987, so this event is not part of my personal cultural baggage. Of course I saw news clips and read papers, but the impact is not the same sitting in a sub-tropical city state. I find it barely believable that something so barbaric could have happened so recently, and judging by this programme the impact will be lifelong on many. Naturally I have views on it, but I would be really interested in your recollections of what it was like to be here during this - I doubt many, if any, of posters on here were directly involved, but this was a nation changing event - how was it reported, were there workplace arguments etc etc. Not so interested in who was right and who was wrong/opinions on the relative evilness of Thatcher and Scargill and I don't want to make work for the mods. Cheers.
I too was very moved by this, in fact it made me angry all over again. It's a pity ITV didn't have the balls to show it at prime time, because it may have opened a few eyes. Very easy to see how the people affected would bear the grudge against Thatcher up to and including her death.
I am still cross today over it. There are three movies that I would recommend if people want to know more about what exactly is happening They are long at 2 hours each but if you want to open your eyes to how things work it will help: [video=youtube;OrHeg77LF4Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrHeg77LF4Y[/video]
Thanks lads, but I'm really interested in what you remember about the time - how did you get your info about it, was it much discussed at work, in pubs etc, what was the 'London' feel at the time.....all the things I missed. I know the politics, characters and events, plus the strength of feeling then and now. Did anyone get personally involved in any way (a few years before, as a kid, I was on the Grunwick picket line for a few days, a concept which many who know me would find thoroughly confusing now)? A little bit of social history.
I'd go careful with the Zeitgeist Movement, they are not what they seem to be. IMHO there's a heavy stench of far right antisemitism around the organisation. Initially the films took me in too probably made easier by my negative attitude towards the US and Israel. The films make valid points about capitalism, the US government and the banking system but the subtext is racist imho. As for the Miners' Strike like SB I wasn't in the UK during the 80's but when I returned in the 90's after decades away the devastation caused by Thatcherism was clear for all to see and we still live with it. We have a man whose previoyus job experience was as a towel folder in Selfridges as Chancellor. Lamposts are too good for the mafia that are ruining our society. Note society, not nation.
Without wanting to put forward my personal views on the subject, I can offer some comments which hopefully wont be too controversial Firstly, my dads family have a strong mining connection as they were all Yorkshire miners, although my dad left the mine and came south in 1949 and maried my mum, hence I was brought up in Paddington and supported the R's. Being a southerner I didnt grow up with a miners mindset and in fact you could say I had more of a Maggie mindset having left school and started work in 1975. so I have a strong sympathy for the mining industry, but with a more to the right viewpoint on many subjects. Overall my comments on the period are: It was Maggies biggest error of judgement to decimate the industry. It has left us reliant on imported coal forever more, plus wouldnt an extra million jobs be a nice thing to have. Scargills left wing, hard line stance on things was like a red rag to a bull to Thatcher The role of the police shames their tradition, and has been repeated a number of times since, Hillsborough being one. The police these days seem to act as though they are above the law. Just look how some of them treat football fans. And I think they're getting worse. The loss of the mines for me is a national disgrace and it destroyed many communities. And all down to the sheer intransigence of two individuals, who couldnt or wouldnt find a compromise. Hope that wasnt too controversial, just a few thoughts from someone who could have had a foot in either camp if circumstances had been different
I remember when they shut a whole load more mines in the 90s, the Tory minister for energy said they were uneconomic and we have enough Gas reserves for the next 20 years plus our new friends the Russians can keep us supplied. I recall at the time thinking - what are we going to do in 20 years. The worst thing about Thatcherism's attitude to industry was the short-termism, if something wasn't profitable it was shut - no real thought to longer term impact, or bailing it out - like Heath did for Roll Royce in the early 70s. Thatcher would have shut that - and its now the UK's few global companies.
My now wife (I didn't know her at the time) was a Grunwick 'scab'. She lived in Chapter Road which was where most of picketing took place (I think there were two sites) and had to travel from her house, which was about 200 yards from Grunwick, to another location where she could get the red bus which used to drive throught the picket line. I was very much pro the strikers at the time, so not sure how our relationship would have developed had we met earlier.
The way the police behaved, with the government's blessing, was probably the most shocking thing to me. I wonder how things would have developed had the miners been led by someone as canny as Bob Crow.
I was 16, just after 'O' levels, into punk and thought myself a radical, went down because I thought it was a worthy cause, but have to say it was not a pleasant experience, a lot of people and police simply looking for a fight, and must have been very scary for your wife to be. That was what I found most upsetting about the programme last night, the way 'scabs' (horrible term) were and still are regarded, when most of them were simply concerned about feeding and housing their families. It's a real dilemma - the strength of unions is in collective action, without it they are toothless, but withdrawal of labour (and union membership) should be an individual choice. Got me stumped.
For sure they are about a system that controls races and racism. I found it very challenging as during the second film I found myself thinking I don't want a bar code on my neck but the ultimate message is enough is enough and maybe just maybe the end times was foretold. I am clear that it can't carry on. If you get to see the points made about world debt and how things are made not to last to fed the consumer markets In summary i think it has gone too far and is out of balance and was never going to be sustainable ... breaking the unions as was done now looks like a much bigger plan maybe the beginning of spin Probably Thatcher was a puppet in most of it anyway. At the time I remember my parents shouting at the Spanish tele from our Menorca holiday home ... to get back to work you lazy sods etc ... I had no idea then and went on into advertising and a world of ****
Being someone who lived and suffered through the huge industrial unrest during the Heath Government of 1970 -1974, I have to say that the miners were asking for it! You can't have an unelected group of people, pointing a gun at the head of the democratically elected government, demanding huge pay rises and bringing the country to its knees when their outrageous demands were not met! In a democratic society the rule of law and the supremacy of Parliament are paramount and in the case of the miners they thought that they could overide this priniciple! Something had to be done to face down this militant group as the country was becoming ungovernable. If Scargill and the NUM had won then the future for this country would have been very bleak indeed. This may not be a very popular opinion but it is my own and we are all entitled to our opinions.
In a sense you are correct about Thatcher, at the end of the day she too was just another brainwashed puppet. Of course it can't carry on and economists know this very well, Marx predicted over 150 years ago that capitalism, now increasingly feral, was unsustainable. He was right, we have nothing to lose but our chains.
Plenty of opinions but no memories/ recollections. Didn't you read the OP Tractor Boy? There are no new opinions to be heard on this, I'm interested in experiences. And now the conspiracy theorists emerge......if you want another string to your bow lads, seek out Adam Curtis' The Trap, an excellent series of documentaries that makes life even more complicated..... It's like herding cats.
I can't remember what i did yesterday. I know at the time however I wanted the unions smashed because it was fed to me that way as were a lot of us ... it's no good pretending otherwise
Cheers Proudfoot, I was beginning to wonder if I'd have to build a 'memory room' like they have in homes for those with dementia........or a 'memory pub' probably.
Have to say Stan that I don't recall too much about it actually affecting us in the South, maybe it's selective memory, it was almost as if it was happening in a different country which in a way the North was at that time (tin hat ready). We only had news footage and the papers to tell us what was hlappening, can you imagine what it would be like today with on the spot uploads to You Tube.....maybe we were being fed the official line because apart from the Daily Mirror most of the other papers were pro government. In a way I can understand the bitterness of the mining communities but Scargill was so entrenched in his views that Thatcher had no option but to crush him otherwise the country would have nose dived further than it had done in the 70's.......
She charmed the Soviet Union into surrender. Not bad for a puppet. Scargill should have been replaced, Thatcher should have looked to the future. Either way to many people suffered.
I shall try to stay off of giving my opinion/memories of Thatcher, Scargill & the whole of the 80's political scene except to say that I suspect most of us are still entrenched with the same views that we held then. Did it impact us in Suffolk? Not much according to my fading memory apart from Suffolk police (and probably most other forces) being short of numbers as they had to send a considerable amount of officers to Yorkshire to join in the fun & games. I don't recall it being discussed much at work or in the pubs due to us, as individuals, having very clear views on the justice of the dispute & so discussion was possible. Arguing & possibly fighting would have resulted if you were giving a different view to another person. What is sure, is that the defeat of the miners changed the mindset of British management to an incredible degree. Whether this was for the better ot worse is a matter of debate that i don't feel is right for this forum.
