OT: Frank and Dave's Philosophical Kebab Emporium

If something is supernatural it defies logic ergo logic is superfluous in finding an answer.

I could throw it back at you and say where did the singularity come from that went bang?

 

CCC - given your experience it doesn't surprise me you switched off and switched out. I think a lot of people reject a religion they see as 'forced on them' as a sort of rite of passage, leave home, leave your parents' ways of thinking behind and step out on your own, on your own adventure, clean slate, open to new beliefs, new ideas.... Some parents don't know why they go to church, they just do out of tradition and there's no harm in that until questioned by their children and then they don't know the answers. It becomes a case of don't question it, just do it. I didn't have a family like that although it would have been frowned on if I stopped going to church, I'm sure - I never tested it so don't know!

In life you tend to get what you're looking for, if that's conflict, you'll find it, if that's happiness, you'll eventually find that too.

 

A very good friend of mine is a Muslim and we often get on to the discussion of what God is, whether/how he can exist etc. and it does normally end in him just asking me to stop because he can see himself starting to question things.

I always want to continue, for me that is healthy and you shouldn't stop your minds natural curiosity but I also don't want to make him uncomfortable or feel he has betrayed Allah or something.

 

It can eventually seem like persecution to him though [not saying that about you, definitely not] - but for those of faith to constantly have it sneered at, as if you're weird [again not saying you did that] or somehow not normal because 'nobody believes in God anymore, don't you know...' makes you want to say leave me alone.

 

We're working on it

 

I'm not sure I did switch off and switch out, JB. If anything, I feel I did the opposite. I thought about religion and expected those who professed a set religion to do likewise. For me, considered religion is far superior to slavish religiosity. In a similar manner, I frown upon atheists who are atheists because it's cool or hip these days. For me, it's just as wrong to believe the 'right' (from my perspective, obviously!) thing for the wrong reasons. Whether you're an atheist, agnostic or religious person, your position should be considered and not thoughtless.

An example to back this up came when my sister converted to Islam due to her partner. I quizzed her about her religion, as she seemed to want to talk about it all the time. However it seemed she really new less than I did (I had extensively researched it in order to make a 'dummy guide' for my brother who wanted to know more about it but as usual couldn't be bothered to read about it himself!). One of my questions was: 'so are you a Sunni muslim or a Shi'a.' She said she didn't know. She then said she'd ask her partner. Apparently, he wasn't sure, but thought they were Sunni. That's like saying you're a christian but uncertain as to whether you are Catholic or Protestant! This wasn't an isolated example but it serves as a good guideline. I always take what they say about Islam with a pinch of salt now.

Great last line, JB. I couldn't agree more.

 

To which I'll throw straight back at you - if something can't come from nothing, did God have a mother? Who was her mum? Again, your using a Godhead to fill in our gaps of knowledge - I refer back to cavemen making gods of suns and rivers because they didn't know what made them.

 

For Frith's sake JB, after millennia of non-believers being stoned, drowned and burned for their 'heresy' you reckon that having your faith questioned is 'persecution'? Now THAT deserves derision.

 

I see what you mean, but it isn't a 'believe what I believe' type of discussion we have - I'm certainly not that kind of person (when it comes to belief!) as I said I'm quick to stop if he feels uncomfortable.

It just interests me because I do not have a faith and I just naturally ask questions.

 

This has gone on at a decent level for a lot longer than I thought!

 

Bit pessimistic, Bluff. We've not really touched on Science much yet, either. It's got staying potential, this thread!

 

Whilst I would never suggest that any study is not worthwhile, I would think that simple reading and re-reading of The Bible was perhaps not the best way to try and answer the questions that you had. After all, The Bible is not written as an instruction manual or as a thesis. With a family background such as yours I'm sure that you have heard the statement "The Devil can quote the Bible too". Now I'm certainly not even suggesting that you are the Devil or anything close but knowing is a great distance away from understanding. As for your brother I would forward the suggestion that his daily reading is Spirit-led as many Christians believe the Bible to be Spirit filled. No I'm not going to give you a lecture on exactly what that means but it is associated with the Trinity and how God speaks to his people. The fact this your brother's approach does not make sense to you does not invalidate the benefit that he gets from undertaking it.

However, I can totally understand your upset when friends and family refuse to even read books that you suggest. As far as I know, it is not possible to be contaminated by reading another persons opinions and findings. However, by reading those works you can get a clearer understanding of why those people think the way that they do. You may not agree with them but you can at least honour the effort that they have made in coming to their honestly held conclusions.

Funnily, and I alluded to it a few nights ago, I find exactly the opposite when non-religious people interact with believers upon elements of faith. Though I do have to accept that people of faith often appear to treat other believers the same way when it comes to denominational issues

 

Livtor was pushing the boat a bit with his 21 questions on everything but I think we will be OK with the science bit as the dark matter is still going on too! Normally these topics turn into mayhem pretty quick is all I was saying.

 

True enough. I'm still mulling over what science to discuss but the theology / existential debate is going quite well so far. Some excellent posts have been made. Long may it continue.

 

On with the science now. It's theology over there as well, so it's getting a bit much.

 

CCC. Sorry mate but I'm going to turn this around a little. I can't speak for the Muslim faith but within Christianity there are a myriad of different and differing denominations and a growing number of us who hold allegence to no organised church whatsoever. I was raised as an Anglican and became a confirmed member of the Anglican Communion. Therefore I could be classified as a Protestant. However, I do have doctrinal issues with all of the Protestant churches as well as the Roman Catholic. So if you asked me now what denomination/sect I belonged to I would find it very difficult to give you a precise answer. However, just to confuse you even more, I would say that I was a member of the Bride of Christ which is the congregation of all believers. Confusing ain't it!

 

You can't half twist things. If the lad in question refuses to answer when asked about his faith it could be he feels persecuted - we've no idea how many people in school. college, work ask him all the time .... or it could simply be he doesn't know how to answer. Any repeated line of enquiry can seem like persecution - 'where've you been, what time do you call this, why didn't you ... why haven't you ...????' Hardly the realms your imaginative mind takes you to but harassment/persecution possibly, nonetheless.

 

I'm not getting into too much of all this but on my mom's side, 100% Episcopalian or CoE, one or the other. Dad's side, agnostic or 100% Southern Baptist, snake charmers and the like. I have seen the best and worst of both. Btw, Dave, assuming you follow Christianity, what do you make of Joel Osteen?

 

I saw quite a bit of Joel Osteen on cable tv when we were in Tobago and just a little here in the UK. Being totally honest I'm unconvinced. Part of that may be our differing cultures. But tv evangelists with big chuches and adds on tv to support the ministry with "love gifts" tend to make feel very uneasy. Those guys certainly do not teach but they do a good presentational job - even though Osteen is quite ugly.

I have heard it said that he has never lost his temper - I somehow doubt that is true either.

All in all I'll pass. But why the question?

 

I wonder if DD would consider himself persecuted if he were to be confronted by the anti-DD, looking like that pic of Phil Jones whilst overflowing with bile regarding what DD holds dear?