Alright Dave, I know you get heated when you perceive condescending remarks (perceive being the key word), so I'll stop it and call a truce. I agreed with your assessment of todays game btw. I'm just gonna add that it irks me when people confuse ambition with negativity. Mighty_Sg said we've been spoiled by our past performances, whilst I say... those awesome past performances have been too many (and often against too significant an opposition) to think of them as mere shooting stars and not as the real ground on which we could stand. The race is open, our strengths are great, let's give it a real shot.
I think we would have drawn or lost, had the sheep worriers not ran out of energy in the 75th minute. But we all need a bit of luck. The taffs are a good footballing team, and while I would have loved to tear into them and leave them for dead after 30 minutes, it is no surprise that they made a game of it. They certainly seem to be far better passers of the ball, which is shameful, as that should be our trademark, but I can't complain. Yes Suarez can't buy a goal at the moment, but he has played non-stop since he came back in, in October, and he always give 100%, and even though the ****ty fantasy football stats only credit him with 1 assist, he assisted in 3 goals, and should have won a pen. As contributions go, you can't do much better than that without scoring. So while I think he could use a rest, as long as he is lining them up for others, he is more than worth his place. Now Johnston is not a long term solution for me, but I welcomed him back with open arms, as it got Cissokho out of them team, who is just far too wasteful to start a game. I can't see us keeping him after the loan is over, he just can't handle the pace of the Prem. Now Skrtel had a poor game, nothing went right for him, and his manhandling turned around and bit him with the pen, but after getting away with more than one justifiable penalty decision this season, he can't complain when someone dives while he's holding his shirt. For me, the biggest culprit in the game was the ref, his decision making seemed a little one sided, and Michael Jones is obviously from the Howard Webb school of reffing, and how he is the most important person on the pitch, who simply has to leave his mark on the game, whether it deserves it or not. To me it looked like he had come to the game with a mental list of assumptions, he wasn't going to look weak and give the big home side any but the most cast iron decisions, and he wasn't going to give Suarez anything, as he's a dirty cheater. Looking on the bright side, Lucas is back soon, and so we won't have to endure Allen for a while ;-) P.S. I still think Mignolet is crap. he is good at one thing, with his springing dives, but he still can't distribute the ball to save his life, and is largely **** scared to come off his line, let alone the 6 yard box. You can pull the centre half apart if you want, but if he was doing his job better, he would be taking some of the strain off them, rather than standing on the goal line, waiting to pounce and look good.
Lucas won't make Allen surplus as they're obviously different CMs (Lucas a much better DM, and Allen better forward). The ref was correct on the penalty, Skrtel's foul (for the doltish follow up with studs up) and on Suarez's penalty claim imo. Agree very much with all your other points .
I'm sorry but, credit where it is due, that was a brilliant part. I'm not sure what it's supposed to mean but I loved it. Made me laugh out loud.
Over the years we've built a poitive community on this forum, we are all guilty of losing our rag over a performance or a players mistake but in general we are a happy group. I don't see the need for anyone to be critical to this degree of a win. Sorry Crumpet it was a good OP.
I don't know what others wrote yet but I had to comment on op. 1. Our midfield was tired? No way not an excuse after a week off 2. Our defense? In short all over the place, we played negatively overall with far too much back passing but I really felt the midfield caused the issues at times. Gerard was not dropping in right and looked not bothered 3. Suarez gave it away time after time, if anyone is tired it's him
I've been surprised that Rodgers hasn't given him a rest at times, we've had opportunity to do so in games but it's always Sturridge who comes off. I don't understand it.
In fairness sturridge is made of glass and only back from injury recently so.... Suarez is made of iron
Good healthy debate Keeps us all on our toes Sorry Livtor I don't think you're alone at all in making a case for ambition. I can name a few posters (Dave being one as it happens) who have used the phrase "shoot for the stars" (paraphrasing) on many occassions this season. In fact I'm not quite sure why being permanently critical is a sign of ambition as opposed to those who take the positives from a game rather than dwelling on the negatives that we can all see anyway. Sure we discuss them but surely there needs to be a balance to that criticism (hence this thread appearing). Like LG pointed out it was a bit of a shock for me to get back from the match to see so many complaints and moans (some of which were bordering on vitriol). The simple fact is that from my own point of view the positives around Anfield right now far outweigh the problems we have and so I make no excuses for concentrating on them. When I feel the negatives outweigh the good things I can guarantee I won't hold back from discussing those issue and I suspect others won't either. Being happy about taking 3 points doesn't mean we are blind to the obvious problems (or truth agrophobic??). It means we have the ability to see clearly that at this stage of the season getting 3 points is the most important thing. All a manager can do (and all he should ever be expected to do) is get the best out of the tools available and at the moment the best tools we have are by far and away our strikers. So we play attacking football which will always come at the expense of defensive solidity (unless we have a world class back four), is that really such a bad thing? It's not something I'll moan about for the simple reason that for all the years I've been going to the game I can't remember a more exciting team to watch on a weekly basis. Defence and midfield are undoubtedly areas we can improve on of course but that makes me even more positive....or truth agrophobic...whichever you prefer, because it means we have even more scope to move forward. However we move forward over time not overnight.
The reality is that Rodgers has amassed the most points by a Liverpool manager after 65 games bar Kenny's first spell (This includes wins which only resulted in 2 points and converts into 3). That is a spectacular record and it's just a shame it happened in the most competitive season to date, else we'd be top or secure in top 4 by now! We have a long way to go as a club but this is the beginning of an exciting journey.
If people want to reminisce about our summer expectations and all that (which frankly, don't matter much now in the heat of the race and can be used to justify regress), let's do it right... This season I thought we'd come 5th and was hoping for 4th. I was quite convinced we wouldn't overtake City, United, Chelsea, was skeptical of Arsenal's form (as always), and wary of Tottenham due to their 7 solid buys. All in all therefore, 4th was doable but a task. Cut to this season: If there was a theme it would be "Wholesale change is not easy" - United gone to the dogs!, Tottenham drab and dank like a soiled laundry load. So, what to do with these blessings? Adjust expectations. Adjust them further now that City, Chelsea, Arsenal are all stuttering. Some will say, it is statistical inevitability that the team will have a workmanlike offday or the opponent will have a very good day. Sure, you will not see me complaining after that type of defeat. I felt proud and short of anything critical to say after our losses to City, Chelsea, or Arsenal in the FA cup. But Fulham and Swansea were not that kind of game. Garry Monk in his postmatch interview actually said that Swansea played poorly in the first half and he had to tell them to focus and tighten up in the dressing room. Swansea did not have a Very good day, and neither did we have merely a slightly off day where we pull up our socks up and try and try but without the expected results. Suarez had a workmanlike off day, whilst LFC had a genuinely off day til Allen came on. You want this poster to be grateful of the positives? But I am! and every night I thank God, or whoever Sisu and his astronomical committee has voted up there, that we have a magnificent forward line. It becomes a bit stale and self-serving though to repeat that ad-nauseam. As B4F said in a post here, you just cannot hope to win games 4-3 over and over, with wobbly defending, ever-relying on attack. "Defences win championships" is an old sports adage and not without reason. 4-3 is a crapshoot, 1-0 isn't. Being constructively critical of a few things, and imo rightly so, does not make a poster negative but positive, as he sees the way forward. It is not shooting for the stars either. THAT is negativity, for who can reach the stars? It seems like a doomed starry eyed melancholic proposition I'd not be intrested in. What we should demand is shooting for being more reliable and consistent and going where we've gone before this season time and again.
No one has a problem with constructive criticism that's fine. Constant criticism in my experience is rarely constructive (not just aimed at you). I think you misunderstand the phrase "shoot for the stars" btw but can I **** be arsed debating that one As for the old adage "defences win championships" it's an old adage for a reason. It simply isn't true anymore, football has changed and it's changed a lot. Defending is so much more difficult under the new-age rules that are practically basketball-esque. Contact ain't what it used to be would be a better adage for the modern game. Just out of interest here's a selection from a certain teams results last season....see if you can guess who's results they are and where they finished in the league. Beat Fulham 3-2 (h), beat Southampton 3-2 (a), lost to Spurs 2-3 (h), beat Stoke 4-2 (h), beat Chelsea and Villa 3-2 (a), Reading 4-3 (a), City 3-2 (a), Newcastle 4-3 (h), drew 5-5 West Brom (a). Hardly a team with a rock solid defence last year.....but how many of their fans gave a **** about that come the end of May? I'll let you be the judge of that.
And that's why they are where they are this year, now that their x factor is gone, now that the mighty dictator who willed them to win the crapshoots through sheer steely-eyed browbeating, cast and locked hypnotically over both players and referees, is gone. Let UIR complain about Moyes all he wants - their main pathology is that they're suffering the loss of their manic big daddy and awoke nude, pale and trembling to the reality outside his wing. Brendan is not a Fergie type and thank god for that. Also, it's not like we have a predilection for winning crapshoots, you know? Fulham was the first game that we won from a losing position this year (and that was in the 93 minute off a gifted penalty), and Swansea the second game (after Fulham) that we managed to win after getting drawn...
How is 1-0 better than 4-3, unless you get off on being bored? So a team that relies on scoring a lot comes unstuck when their attack misfires- very true. Equally a team that relies on defence can come unstuck when that defence slips up and they haven't got the firepower to get back into the game. To say one is more effective than the other has no basis in fact or logic. The only sure-fire way to win is to have the best quality in every department- and we're a long way off that. One thing we're not a long way off is the top of the league, and that's the only important statistic. We have a fantastic attack and a just about adequate defence. There's nothing we can do to change that until we have the chance to bring in somebody better. Noticing their mistakes is something we can't help but do- moaning about them gets us nowhere.
We'll have to disagree. Organisation, clarity, discipline are paramount, and I cannot gloat about a performance if it lacks them, even if we end up winning. Games like Fulham and Swansea - I am happy with the final score, but will be critical of the performance. Games like City and Arsenal in the cup, I'm not happy with the outcome, but will not be critical of the performance. Whatever floats your boat. But one thing you should know if you read my posts, I never moan as I'm busy talking facts and reason rather than pies in the sky (which is sometimes a literal topic on here), and even if I am wrong I hope that I give contribution through my rational perspective. If some see it as moaning, it speaks volumes about them and their frailty in the face of constructive criticism. Such people usually are good cheer-leaders yet poor leaders in other aspects.
Livtor I've been monitoring a few of the arguments that have arisen over the weekend and I can see why you are getting frustrated, I can also see why some are getting frustrated with you. This board is quite a laid back little community (other than the odd meltdown) and your factual approach is welcome as other than MITO your probably the only person to post this way. You've explained your point of view well and I think we should all accept that you just see things a little differently from others on here, I can't say that people will agree with you or that they wont argue the toss but that's what forums are all about I suppose. I will say that I feel your responses to people who disagree with you can be condescending and I would ask that you consider that, I will also make sure that in turn people treat you fairly and if there is an argument that all involved respect that you just have a different opinion and that and name calling or abuse towards you is stopped. I hope that the regulars who read this can agree on my points, any problems, please PM me or one of the other mods.
3 pages! No tumbleweed here, I haven't read every post but I'm sure there has been a lot of spirited, all in good fun, debate with a resounding sense of positivity. EDIT: My thread has led to a minor civil war, bollocks
gonz, appreciate you caring about this. I don't think any one of the debaters here stepped over the line. All I ever did whilst debating my side was returning Rubbersoul's muppet description (which was actually about a poster named muppet, really? ) and invited saintanton to grow up together as he was talking about much ethereal things. The finer 'condescensions' are a matter of art (anyone attempts them). I've got a thick skin anyhow, so you'll never see me complain about smb even if they grossly stepped over the line (which I agree that it shouldn't happen for the sake of the community). I also think that there are a bunch of constructive critics here besides me, who perhaps, being in the minority don't prefer to defend their points or prod the argument. MITO does tho, even in her drowsiest (or is it plastered) spells . It's all good and for LFC's betterment sake.
