Looks like absolute mayhem over there but I don't quite get it. I think from my limited knowledge, it's basically the Government want closer ties with Russia (As I think much of the East of the country does), while the protesters want closer ties with the EU. Is that it 'cos it seems pretty extreme if it is ? And who are the good guys ? (I know that is probably a bit too simplistic but was curious anyway) Can anyone enlighten me ?
It's like a miniature version of Russia with a similar political set-up and a similar President to Putin. You may recall the rigged Presidential election about ten years ago where Yushenko was poisoned before being declared the winner by the Supreme Court. The defeated candidate Yanukovych then became Prime Minister before then being elected President in 2010. He is seen as very much Putin's puppet, When Yushenko was President Russia cut off gas supplies over debt payments, so they have a real control over a country that is split almost 50/50 with the East very pro-Russia and the West pro-Europe. Yanukovych refused to sign an agreement for closer ties with the EU and instead opted for a loan bail-out giving closer ties with Russia. That started the protests which are now heading for what could be a bloodbath. You get the feeling that Russia will do everything possible to prop up Yanukovych so it could get very nasty for the pro-Europe half of the country...
The younger people want to join the EU so they can then come to England to sign on, commit crime and have babies. But the older population and the government want to stay in ties with Russia.
The situation in the Ukraine is slightly more complex. The issue, the protest and now the nigh on revolution, and potential civil war is about "REFORM.' The current protests started last November to force the signing of the EU Association Agreement and was symbolised by the protests in Majdan square. During three months of permanent protests in very sub-zero temperatures, they now include many groups representing many political views, even extremely radical ones. The issues now include not only the accession of the Ukraine to EU and the release of Julia Tymoszeno, but also fundamental reforms in the legal, social, economic and governmental structures, as well as the global corruption, and the overall unfairness of the system. In short, it is a massive cry and movement for CHANGE! The protests have gone viral and are also present in many cities and towns across the Ukraine. This movement is out of the control of the opposition leader, but is surprisingly well organically organised at a very ground roots level. The current Ukrainian leadership is both fighting for its political life, and more importantly, for their personal wealth. Also, a truly independent Ukraine is unthinkable to the current Russian regime, as not only do they have the same culture, language and infrastructure, but are key to a player to a Russian "union of countries" that they see an alternative to the EU and USA. Thus, massive pressure (financial, political, etc) is being applied to resolve "the issue", and of course, the solution is a classic totalitarian method. Please note, that the Ukraine is not a distant country. It is in central Europe and only a couple of hours drive from where I am typing this post in Warsaw. Kiev, is a beautiful and modern city. Majdan square is similar to Trafalgar Square (London), the Place de la Concorde (Paris) or the Plazza Veneza (Rome). In a European capital city of a county with 46M inhabitants, in the 21st Century, and 20 years from the fall of the Iron Curtain, we have people being killed and shot in the streets!!! I personally can’t believe it and am horrified. I absolutely admire the guts and determination of these people, and hope that they achieve their dream. I do not think I personally would have the guts to protest and fight for my values like they are.... literally risking their lives. I also find this extremely hard to accept that this is happening on our EU door step, live on TV and "we" are not really dong much about it. It is not a reality show or sci-fi film. It is really happening. I hope that a peace and a road map for a solution is found fast, and implenented. As this is football forum and I do not want to be accused of being political, last night Dynamo Kiev lost 0-2 with Valenica (match played in Cyprus for obvious reasons). I am not sure how many Dynamo fans were really interested in the result. Only 18 months ago Spain beat Italy 4-0 in the final of Euro 2014 in Kiev. What a contrast in the streets on Kiev. God bless them.
Just like Syria, America/EU will not go against Russia, they know Putin will attempt to prove his macho image. After Afghanistan/Iraq/Libya the West has lost the appetite for confrontation, and the cost of war is now prohibitive, to the over-indebted West.
Thanks for the insight gents. Ski - very informative and hugely grateful for your knowledge, very much appreciated to have the view of someone who has this closer to home. Don't worry about being too political on a football forum.....I do it all the time . It makes for good debate.
Staines - Thanks for the feedback. I am glad that it is being read and appreciated. I admit that I feel quite emotional about it. In some way, this is an acid test of the true importance of football and QPR with respect to other values. In Maslow's terms, QPR is somewhere near the top, whilst the Majdan events are literally rock bottom (personal security). I truely admire and feel so sorry for those people in the Ukraine.
What's happening there is appalling and a measure of the desperation that must be engulfing the people in Kiev. You see things like this happening and wonder just where it will end. No doubt Russia will bring Ukraine into line by whatever means necessary but it doesn't bode well for those hoping for change...
Nice work Ski. I was reading a bit about the extremely complicated history of Poland and Lithuania recently, in which elements of the Ukraine play a big role. This stuff is never simple and history plays a bigger part in Central Europe than many of us on the Western periphery realise. Its a tragedy, but strangely inspiring yesterday seeing unarmed people walking into danger, helping each other and standing firm. Who would have thought that the EU could stir such passion (I know there's a lot more to it than that)?
Great news from Kiev. Not only that a comprimise solution with a road map for change and new elections was agreed, but it seems it could be an outright victory, in short a revolution. What a turn around in events. It is only a great shame that blood had to be spilt before it was achieved. But when you see more people flocking to an "event" where people are being literally shot that you realise, and can only admire, their determination. I hope that new leader now emerge and that can can take full advavantage of their new opportunity. There was great hope in 2004 with the Orange Revolution, now I hope that the Majdan revolution will bring them the changes they long for. But they will need support and big brother next door will not let them go lightly.
it does look like it will be war the is a split in the country could see it splitting in two, they are now threatening to become a nuclear power and re arm. Why do we stick our noses in on top of this Russia has a naval base in Crimea which is autonomous region of Ukraine ( a bit like wales). i feel sorry for the general public it is they who will suffer what ever the outcome. most of the protesters will be no better off same s**t different govt. the irony given the choice most of the UK would vote to leave the EU here are people willing to die for the chance to jion
Ukraine will never be 'free', Russia to all intents and purposes treats it as a 'province' and is simply reminding them who is boss. It'll all end in tears...
It's up to Putin. Let's hope he will be satisfied in getting the Crimea back, and lets hope that is a peaceful transition (though a few hundred thousand angry Crimean Tartars (the remains of Genghis Khan's Golden Horde, who most certainly do not want to be part of Russia again) may have something to say about that). No way will the west do anything serious if Russia does interfere, we only bully the weak (c.f. Uber's Open Debate thread....)
Just highlights again how inadequate Europe is at sorting out problems in it own backyard. This could get very nasty as under Putin, Russia has a serious pair of ba•ls. They're not the slightest bit intimidated by the US.
It's looking very ugly now. Crimea will be forcibly taken and then, as Imaz says, where will Putin stop, safe in the knowledge the West is toothless in his backyard. Did the (mainly Russian speaking) Eastern Ukrainians get a say in whether they wanted to be Ukrainian or Russian when the state was formed?
That is the benefit of living in a communistic state, or in this case ex-communistic state, you dont need to speak, the state just "looks after" you. Whether you want it or not !! Paternalistic-ally speaking, of course !! Russian Navy now block-aiding the Ukrainian Navy in the Port of Sevastopol.
Certainly a very disturbing situation which sounds a bit like.... The German occupation of Czechoslovakia (1938â1945) began with the Nazi annexation of Czechoslovakia's northern and western border regions, known collectively as the Sudetenland, under terms outlined by the Munich Agreement. Nazi leader Adolf Hitler's pretext for this effort was the alleged privations suffered by the ethnic German population living in those regions. New and extensive Czechoslovak border fortifications were also located in the same area. Following the Anschluss of Nazi Germany and Austria, in March 1938, the conquest of Czechoslovakia became Hitler's next ambition. The incorporation of the Sudetenland into Nazi Germany left the rest of Czechoslovakia weak and it became powerless to resist subsequent occupation. On 16 March 1939, the German Wehrmacht moved into the remainder of Czechoslovakia and, from Prague Castle, Hitler proclaimed Bohemia and Moravia the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia. The occupation ended with the surrender of Germany following World War II. please log in to view this image From left to right: Chamberlain, Daladier, Hitler, Mussolini, and Ciano pictured before signing the Munich Agreement, which gave the Sudetenland to Germany Germans in Czechoslovakia (1918-1938) Sudeten German pro-Nazi leader Konrad Henlein offered the Sudeten German Party (SdP) as the agent for Hitler's campaign. Henlein met with Hitler in Berlin on 28 March 1938, where he was instructed to raise demands unacceptable to the Czechoslovak government led by president Edvard BeneÅ¡. On 24 April, the SdP issued the Karlsbader Programm, demanding autonomy for the Sudetenland and the freedom to profess Nazi ideology. If Henlein's demands were granted, the Sudetenland would then be able to align itself with Nazi Germany. "I am asking neither that Germany be allowed to oppress three and a half million Frenchmen, nor am I asking that three and a half million Englishmen be placed at our mercy. Rather I am simply demanding that the oppression of three and a half million Germans in Czechoslovakia cease and that the inalienable right to self-determination take its place." - Adolf Hitler's speech at the NSDAP Congress 1938 The Munich Agreement. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_occupation_of_Czechoslovakia So much for Chamberlain's "Peace in our time" declaration - not sure if Ukraine will end up in a similar situation where two separate countries exist today, Czech Republic and Slovakia Western Ukraine with ties to Europe and Eastern Ukraine, including Crimea, with a government aligned with Russia. Or Russia might just grab Crimea as their own little Alaska to secure their Black Sea fleet.
