Yeah but Rafa could at least turn around and say...."You might not like me but I know how to win things" unlike Moyes Afraid I don't agree with you about Souness, he was someone who thought his image and reputation was enough to blag him through (Roy Keane was the same) and he never believed he needed to develop his own management skills and knowledge of the game. He allowed cliques to develop, let the wrong players believe their own hype, bought terribly and the injury record under him was attrocious. He completely failed to see the way football was changing (he wasn't the only one at Anfield at the time).
Sorry Billy, the cliques were already there both on and off the pitch. Now, you can question his PR skills but my feeling is that he was isolated between a rock and a hard place. The structures were passed their sell by date and the whole atmosphere was a sham. He didn't truly stand a chance. If you like that is the only similarity between Souness and Moyes - though the end result for United could be very similar.
Oh I don't think there are many similarities at all. I think Moyes is an average manager trying hard but now realising he's not good enough and Souness was an average manager who never got his head around the fact that he was an average manager. The structures were well passed their sell by date as you say but then they had been at United too yet they changed that (with a large input from their manager) and Souness didn't even notice they'd done it and the effect it had. Fair comment that the cliques were already in place but then they were a clique of ****ing good players whereas Souness brought about a clique of ****ing ****e ones He isolated himself. Donga's right that we didn't give him any patience after the s*n interview but then why the **** should we have? It was crass and insensitive and summed up the man to a tee. The reality is the rumblings from the terraces came a long time before that interview though. How long do you think it took to know the team was crumbling around our very ears? It is fair to say that decline wasn't entirely down to Souness, the squad was getting old and needed revitalising but Souness did just the opposite. I remember the days of turning up and just praying Barnesy was fit, praying that Walters was injured and praying that fat ****ers like Dicks and Ruddock had actually bothered to train that week.
I think this is the most important point here! Souness was a bad manager of the team but Liverpool FC completely failed when it came to adjusting to the modern football and the PL. Millions were wasted on overhyped players and agent fees whilst key targets of stadium expansion and brand globalisation were completely missed. Even by the mid 90's we were already completely out of touch of manu in terms of buying power and it will be some time yet before we get close again. The club over the last 25 years has been run very badly, seemingly always focused on the short term instead of planning a for the future and creating a strong foundation to enable us to maintain a base from which we can always challenge, tbh I'm amazed we have done as well as we have! The one that has to shoulder the most blame for that is David Moores, he even sold the club to G&H FFS. At least now we have a management team that understands modern sport, just got to get some of the fans to understand the game will never be the same as it was in LFC's pomp.
Agree with all that mate. I just disagree with anyone who thinks Souness was a victim of those problems. He wasn't, he was just another part of them.
I never said that Souness did not play is part in what happened but it annoys me that too many people lay the full responsibility on his shoulders. Look to Moores if you want the true culprit.
Dean Saunders July 1991 * 2,900,000 * Derby County * Neil Ruddock July 1993 * 2,500,000 * Tottenham Hotspur * Paul Stewart July 1992 * 2,300,000 * Tottenham Hotspur * Nigel Clough June 1993 * 2,275,000 * Nottingham Forest * Mark Wright July 1991 * 2,200,000 * Derby County * Michael Thomas December 1991 * 1,500,000 * Arsenal * Mark Walters August 1991 * 1,250,000 * Rangers * David James June 1992 * 1,000,000 * Watford * Stig Inge Bjornebye December 1992 * 600,000 * Rosenborg * Torben Piechnik September 1992 * 500,000 * FC Copenhagen * Istvan Kozma February 1992 * 300,000 * Dunfermline * Rob Jones October 1991 * 300,000 * Crewe Alexandra * Lee Jones March 1992 * 300,000 * Wrexham * Scott Patterson March 1992 * 25,000 * Cove Rangers * Robbie Fowler April 1992 * 0 * Trainee * Dominic Matteo May 1992 * 0 * Trainee * Phil Charnock June 1992 * 0 * Trainee * Tony Warner January 1994 * 0 * Trainee * Steve Hollis 1991 * 0 * Trainee * Julian Dicks September 1993 * 0 * West Ham United * Look at the state of those transfers. None of them made a long term impact bar Fowler (not really a Souness signing)
United overachieved with Ferguson purely due to Ferguson's maniacal genius. He's gone and their wings are clipped along with more distressing big daddy leaving vacuum symptoms. While we've had great managers, bar the time under the genius of Shankly it has been the strength of the culture at the club that carried LFC teams to glory, alongside wise management, but not due to it. When the end came, it was organic like Rome crumbling. United looks more like the fall of the Soviet Union.
Moores and Souness were cut from the same cloth, a pair of spivs. It wasn't all his fault but he was a **** manager for us whatever the circumstances. Lucaas's list there is totally valid. Of all those players signed.....only two were good enough for LFC (Rob Jones obviously and Mark Wright was half decent). The rest weren't even fit for the knackers yard
Don't think you can blame souness although he did waste a lot of money what else was he supposed to do, not buy anyone? granted he may have been a catalyst for the events that followed but he also presented an opportunity for the club to adjust, one Moores failed to take. Similarly you could compare the situation to Kenny's recent departure after squandering 50m, but FSG thought about the long term creating a new young team under a promising manager with a clear vision when they could have easily kept Kenny and the traditional liverpool way.
What else was he supposed to do? Try paying british record transfer fees for title standard players for a start. Don't pay a small fortune for ****e like Walters, Saunders and ****ing Stewart. If there's one thing you could never level at the cock Moores it's that he ever left Souness short of money to rebuild that squad. Everything else him and his cronies did was wrong but backing the manager in the transfer market certainly wasn't one of them.
I'll leave it too Skip Just after I've pointed out one last time that I'm 100% right on this one....Souness was a ****ing terrible manager for LFC Let's just hope Moysey gets the same amount of time in the manc job......
The end of the Souness era left us bereft of players, ideas and leadership. The old glories faded and we looked what we were shabby. We still had enough about us to put on a decent enough show occasionally but in truth it took all of our effort to do that! Today we stand on the brink of marching into a brand new dawn and only time will tell if that is the future we desire or yet another false dawn. I pray that it is a true renewal because if it isn't then I fear we will become another Newcastle - full of loyalty and pride but with no top class prospects.
For all the faults of the past I've enjoyed watching us this season as much as any in a long time Onwards and upwards
And what was our response to the mess Souness left behind? Roy Evans!!!! A guy that had been a coach under Souness. A great Liverpool servant no doubt, but the same old Liverpool style, like we thought everything else was beneath us! We became a dinosaur of the game afraid to evolve from our once great status and it nearly made us extinct! I don't think we will have the same issue with FSG as they are finally dragging us into the 21st century. United on the other hand seemed to have made the opposite mistake, doing away with a lot of the experience that has gained them so much success, but they are still financially much better off than us despite large debts. I think once they get rid of Moyes they will bounce back quickly, as long as the glazers are prepared to take a few calculated risks and not become stagnated as liverpool did.
souness won the fa cup and had a triple heart bypass. hodgson was so bad he was taken out after 6 months. I hope the utd board in their inexperience with sackings leave moyes in charge as long as we did souness. BUT.... moyes aint even souness. he's just a long ball merchant.
I disagree with you about United. As much as Moyes appears to be a train wreck in slow motion, the problems are far bigger than a new manager and a bagful of cash. As with us the rot creeps into every corner of the club and takes a lot of time to cut out and even longer to grow a new culture. Perhaps the hardest thing is letting go of what had gone before. As you pointed out post Souness it was hanging onto the old culture that hamstrung us for so long.
Thought we played some great football under Evans, but we just never had the killer instinct nor belief after the Cream Suit cup final. He never had the same rod-of-iron fear over the young players that Slurgy had. I could never imagine him doing what Fungus did to Lee Sharpe, for instance, or indeed clearing out the old school that wouldn't conform like he did too. Agree with all that Moores is the root cause of our decline through the 90's, but the **** had the prime opportunity to turn it all around post-Istanbul, yet dithered and sold the club to two obvious carpetbaggers for a few million more than DIC were offering. Don't get me wrong, DIC were no Sheik Mansour, but they were backed by the Dubai Royal family and I'm CONVINCED we'd now be in a 60K stadium, even had DIC had to sell us on later when the recession came. Jeez, WE could have been the ones bought by Sheik Mansour.... And btw, I never said Souness was blameless either. He was, however, after Hansen, the fans' choice for manager after Kenny and if anyone denies that they either weren't around at the time or they're lying.
