Yep, Fletcher pre-injury was superb for them. Carrick's now reaching legend-like status with them now, maybe Chadli can get similar status with us in a few years
Kind of what I was saying but I don't agree with that list. Sissoko's an attacking midfielder and plays on the wing a lot for Newcastle, Paulinho's no defensive player either and apart from Bender, Marchisio and Sandro I don't think any of them have been considered defensive players, actually. Well maybe Matuidi has, I can't say I've ever seen him play. Infact if we're talking about players that started out as defensive midfielders before getting flexible roles then Schweinstieger definitely doesn't count as he was a winger! The term "box-to-box midfielder" amuses me though. 10 years ago you'd just call them a "midfielder", or a "central midfielder" if you were getting specific. Nowadays there's a whole range of new names for players doing near enough the same roles that were done in the past. Funnily enough the only position that hasn't had a load of different names for it is the one that's changed the most, full back. Maybe I'm a hypocrite but I liked "holding midfielder" as a term because they took being a defensive midfielder to the extreme, I just don't see the same distinction as necessary for a lot of other positions. Arsenal have started with Flamini in about half their games so whilst they did need a player like that I don't think you can attribute their improvement to having him in the side. One thing that Wenger really has improved on is getting Arsenal to see out games and that's been done with a number of players already at the club, in the past they'd have either kept on attacking or just made a mess of trying to see out the game. As I've said, I think more top sides are moving away from the sort of holding midfielder role now and having the defensive work a bit more spread out over the midfield again. Everything has it's advantages and disadvantages. I'm not sure Les is wrong for what he's said but there's good reasons for holding midfielders became popular(much more attacking full backs for one) and if we move away from that we have to replace the defensive attitude elsewhere on the pitch. You can pretty much argue the toss on what he said as either extremely behind the times or forward thinking
There have been different terns for a long time, going way back, such as box to box, playmaker, destroyer or defensive midfielder as you're highlighting the players main quality so I've always found these terms fairly normal! Marchiso has a great engine, can run up and down all day helping in defence or midfield. While Pirlo is a playmaker who tends to sit deep. You could say both central midfield players yet because they excel in different attributes, I like to highlight them with terms that do them justice! Of course Crap is associated with Chadli
Imagine how much time he'd spend arguing if they disagreed. The scary thing is, I suspect Ferdinand is being accurate. "I'm telling you, Tim, we just don't need a holding midfield player." "Absolutely." "No, really, I think we need more of an all-rounder." "I couldn't agree more--but we've been over this already." "Do you see what I'm saying, Tim, it's time we stopped having players who won't cross the halfway line..." (Edit: should have seen Barney and others already made this point--if I would have kept reading....)
Marchisio's a centre mid and Pirlo is an inverted, false, inside number 6 of course. What midfielders don't cover from box to box? All of them except holding midfielders and number 10s(formerly known as attacking midfielders). The point I was making is that a lot of the names aren't necessary. When we had Kanoute, Defoe, Keane and Mido we had 4 strikers, not a number 9, poacher, second striker and target man and it didn't cause any confusion. Most of the time what people are talking about are their traits. Pirlo is a defensive midfielder, that's his position. Playmaker isn't a position it's a trait, you wouldn't call Lennon's position "fast winger" to avoid confusion with a winger like Downing that doesn't rely on pace. Lets face it they play on the wings in a very different way, don't they? Actually maybe we should have "fast winger" and "fat winger" to distinguish the difference between the likes of Lennon and Andy Reid.
Yep I think you are being unfair on Sir Les. He is making a point and to do that you often exagerate. My original thought is that this is a reaction to the AVB period and the point he is making is what we were all complaining about......the crab like movement of the team. Ferdinand is not a politician and will therefore not consider every word and for that reason I am happy to take the point and not bother about the detail. Of course he dosen't mean players literally stop at the half way line it's the attitiude and awareness that is the point.
Sissoko started his career at Toulouse as a DM, it was him and Sandro we were chasing for the DM role prior to getting the beast. Paulinho started out as a DM, think he mentioned in an interview that he started venturing forward with Brangantino (SP?) and then fully become the box-to-box/ CAM type at Corinthians. Vidal was a DM at Leverkusen. The amount of times my scouts kept on recommending him to me on the old FM's was unreal . Ramires was definitely a DM pre-Chelsea. He was a dirty little ****er in his first season with them (still is at times now, though playing for them lot what do you expect). I stuck Schweinsteiger in purely because he's one of the best box-to-box players around, though you're absolutely right, was initially a winger (remember that goal at the World Cup against Portugal in Germany where he cut inside from the left? Corker!). I think the terms has changed due to foreign influence on today's game. Most of the terms used today have stemmed from players making it unique abroad. It may sound funny but I think games like Football Manager have also had an influence with position's titles. Makelele - Defensive midfielder. Messi - Inside forward. Pirlo - Deep lying playmaker. Xavi - Advanced playmaker. In recent years Football Manager has added Sweeper Keeper, Ball Playing CB, Anchor Man, Defensive Winger, Trequartista, Shadow Striker... It's crazy. But the funny thing is, people start using those terms as if it's the norm.
Pirlo is a playmaker, sitting deep and dictating play. That's his main role in the team. Marchiso is an energetic midfielder who covers more ground then most, has high levels of stamina. That's why he gets labeled box to box. If you watch Juve you will notice the difference in each players role so you say ' what midfielder doesn't go box to box' I can tell you Midfielders like Marchiso cover more ground then most so they become known for that quality.
Haha, I know about Football Manager with some of these terms, I bought the 2011 game and found all of that nonsense on it Football fans using the term "false 9" used to annoy me far more than it should have though, I guess I'm just a grumpy bastard
We're grumpy argumentative bastards that agree with one another but just like pissing one another off then!
Just because AVB couldnt utilise a DM in a team that could also score goals, doesnt mean it's a bad tactic. Plenty of managers have DMs that sit back but can still utilise their wingers and strikers and actually score goals. (Mourinho, Klopp, Sir Alex Ferguson to name but a few). AVB was just a dreadful manager and Sir Les is a thick c**t like his cousin (must run in the family) who got annoyed at AVBs ineptitude.
Slight exaggeration there YV, he's started 14 of 22 and 4 sub apps, they've done better out of him than we have out of Sandro! 18 games out 22 isn't bad for a position that attracts injury, and again, I'm not entirely tributing Flamini with their improvement, but he has certainly played a bigger part than your prepared to give. Obviously Mertesacker has settled and improved, there are these and other factors playing a part, but another is having this HM that supporters, pundits, you name it, have all said Arsenal were missing. I don't see any team moving away from a HM. No two players play it the same way, but the fundamental job is to sit and protect the back4, just incase there's a counter-attack when his partner has gone forward. That tactic will not be 'moved away from' anytime soon. Defensive work is spread out anyway when you don't have the ball, you defend mainly as two banks of 4, you're not arranged as one holding and the other gone forward! What is becoming apparent imo, is the variety of players that play there with different skillsets, its not a case of getting any old DM/HM, the position has evolved and you need to look at what else is missing from the team that a HM and 'his' skillsets can bring to your team. Example, Alonso and Dembele, both HM's, primary job, both can tackle and win the ball, but once he's got it does your team need a range passer or a dribbler? Horses for courses again.
