Gay Footballers

I find it odd (and once again slightly offensive) that you think being gay is a choice. If you walked into a room and saw one bed with a naked woman in it and another with a naked man in it, do you have to stop and try to decide which you wanted to jump into, and which one you didn't? Why do you think gay people have a decision to make?

Yes, there are bisexual people around who do have a choice, but there is significant proof nowadays that most gay people do not have a choice, any more than straight people do.

 

I never said he was a martyr, hell this discussion is not about thomas.

But in answer to your poem. Yes you do get a medal for being straight - you get not having rights taken away, you get not being judged for your sexuality, you are not punishable be prison and death in parts of the world for being who you are. Thats your medal.

Does any gay person deserve a medal absolutely - the medal of having the same right to exist a straight person does not hide who they are (like you would prefer) just to survive.

And also it clearly it does bug you about homosexuality as your first comment was don't ask don't tell. It's not about being special it is about being yourself and not losing rights/being judged for because of it.

See this is the crux of the issue. Gays are born that way, its not a choice. Why do you think the suicide rate in young gays are so high because they are fighting such a struggle to deny who they are that they kill themselves because they fear what society will say. It is the same as being black, or a women or any other minority. It is about being who you are and being condemned for it. You believe in god right? Well there are many who condem religion so why don't you stop believing in it??? You are black right?? Well plenty of racists out there try to act white?? Could you?? Do you understand what people go through because they are told being gay is wrong.

 

I'd think "christ, what house have a gone into by mistake and how much is this going to end up costing me"!

On a more serious note there was a nice article by John Ruddy on this topic. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/25679536

 

.

 

what a surprise.

I think you were born offended.

You go out of your way to be offended .

 

Thousands of years ago, the most evil man in history came up with the first commandment, a master stroke in the evolution of religion and a disaster for mankind. "You shall have no other God but me."

We are still killing each other today because of it. In my opinion, if there is a root of all evil, this is it.

 

Better than going out of your way to be offensive...

 

He had a very good point though. What Jadot said was offensive.

 

Maybe he was born that way and doesn't have a choice.

 

Dawkins?

Good quote. Good debate too, chaps. IMO, nothing should be taboo in debate. Restrictions on topics of debate, if discussions are conducted in an empathetic and adult manner, are indicative of a diseased society. I think there gay people should be free to come out and shouldn't be demonized for their Nature. However, the inherent tribalism and culture surrounding football makes it a toxic milieu for a gay person to be exposed to, without sufficient support infrastructure.

 

This is the reality of the situation, no matter how much we debate the ideals of what should happen. Perhaps this is a controversial thing to say, but I don't think you can particularly blame football fans for it either, because of the cultural context of 'banter' - which inherent in its purpose, is designed to provoke and belittle the opposition and to 'get one over' no matter what taboos are broken. In fact the more risque, the better.

 

I think this entire thread is a total ****ing disgrace to be perfectly honest.

We have one group who are trying to suggest being Gay is a choice people have made and totally different from being discriminated for being Black - where the **** have you been living for the last decade? Seriously, you are homophobic. Simple as that. There is no choice in the matter. Someones sexual orientation is wired into there brain, it's in the DNA, just like you being black. So unless you want to start being persecuted for being of darker skin tone then i'd stfu, do some research and get rid of that ignorant attitude.

We then have another section of people that seem to be very pro-homosexual rights and anti-homophobia and giving off a very 'higher than thou attitude', yet they refer to homosexuals as "the gays" and black people as "blacks" - is this the 50's?

A couple of pages ago Toelda also made some very good observations about religion to which A87 agreed and then ripped into him for sharing the same views - slightly insane to say the least....

Honestly guys, the level of idiocy in this thread really is dissapointing, this is the 21st century.

That said though i can understand why gay football players would be unsure about comming out to the media - firstly because like some others i don't see the big deal with comming out, i understand it can be a brave thing to do but ultimately shouldn't make a difference. And secondly because the level of abuse would be quite high - football fans will use anything they can to slate opposition players. Is it any worse than saying you hope someones kids die? No, the level of abuse is there regardless and that should probably be addressed rather than any particular worry about homophobia or racism in my opinion.

 

Have to agree with this - people will say what they think will affect the opposition (whether that be a football team ,or a person your arguing with etc) regardless of whether they actually share this view. For example (preparing to get some abuse lol) i've been known to be racist, or sexist towards someone purposely to get areaction, knowing that is the thing that will wind them up the most, despite having no negative feeling at all towards anyone due to there gender, skin colour or sexual orientation lol

A certain amount of abuse has to be put down to banter, i suppose it is difficult to decide where the line is drawn.

 

Football rivalry is played out like a pantomime though in the grounds, nobody really actually hates anybody else on personal level and some of the controversial chants are actually quite hilarious, so you can see the appeal

 

"Coming out" is not a case of him deciding to announce it to the world from a rooftop. All a Premier League footballer has to do to be deemed to have come out by the media is do something perfectly ordinary ... like go to a bar and go home with a guy, or announce his wedding to his partner, or go to some media event he's got a +1 to with his boyfriend. Straight footballers can do all those things without batting an eyelid.

And let's not blame the media either. I don't believe footballers choose not to come out simply because of the macho environment of the dressing room ... footballers are macho idiots, but most of them aren't ignorant bigots, and those who did act badly towards it would get ostracised for doing so. The reason they don't come out is because of the fans. And that's the fault of every fan, because as a group nobody stands up and says "that's out of order" when they hear chanting about people being gay. Because hey, it's all "banter".

F*ck the word "banter". It's too often used as a flimsy excuse for being abusive.

 

I agree and I'm not condoning it, but I do think we need to take into account the 'pantomime' that goes on in football stadiums. It's a bit like a punch and judy show, everybody knows who the heroes and villians are and it's expected that there's crowd participation, shouting at the baddie and cheering on the goodie. Nobody actually really hates the person they are shouting at, they are the opposition and fair game in this context.

I think there's a difference in the mindset between this and somebody walking down the street and individually targeting a gay/black/religious with hate speech. Although when it comes down to it, you do have to say that both are unacceptable in all honesty.

 

How does pantomime booing and cheering stretch to chants about players being gay?

 

In as much that it's in a similar context, the expected thing to do at a football match is to shout and chant and try mock the opposition, that is a part of football culture. I agree that it goes over the top and I'm not condoning it, I'm just trying to explain how it comes about. It's not a personal hate of gays or individual people, but is a symptom of the 'one-upmanship' that goes with the territory of football fans.

 

I know you say you're not condoning it, but by offering up explanations for why it happens which compare it to light-hearted booing and cheering, it sounds an awful lot like you are.

I don't buy into the "They don't hate gay people, they just chant homophobic things because it's banter and that's what you do at a football match" line. It's that kind of explaining away that leads to people not challenging it. If a group of people next to you were involved in such a chant, would you tell them to stop PISKIE?

 

Wow, 4 pages now? Must be a slow week.