Scotland almost 2014 where political thought is outlawed? When i put the song in the context of the Hunger strikers i was doing so because the song is about the hunger strikers. I do note that you are directing this post at me for giving it that context. Presumably you will offer the same critique to Dev for not giving it that context? The rest of your post is a debate for another day.
I offered that it was absurd. Because it is. But if someone is trying to link something 3,4 or 5 steps away, as Dev has, and call it content of the song then that lacks credibility.
If you mention the 1981 hunger strikers to anyone they will automatically think of republican terrorists (or republican freedom fighters if that's your political slant)... It might be three steps away but it is linked...they were on hunger strike for republicanism... a lot people in Scotland don't connect with it, especially at a football game. It can be offensive...no matter how you connect the dots. The lyrical content may not be offensive but the overall message could be construed as offensive ... reasons advised previously.
Right..I'm off I recognise yer points rb, I hope you can recognise my slant on it. First time I've been serious on this issue...
Right if you want me to remove the word "Content" from what I said then I will. The song is offensive to a lot of people in Scotland.
That's cool. You understand why I am making the point so strongly in relation to the Act and it's application. You might find it offensive and i have no problem with that but it isn't inherently so in the same way that "Go on Home" might be. I don't think any of them should be illegal but certainly not this one where, as Pud says, you have to join up dots.
The song is in praise of members of the PIRA (and other proscribed republican organisations). That is the content. That is what people find offensive.
As I said all along, the major or minor details don't matter to people. When Celtic fans are singing about BOTOB it is not about the PIRA, but that's the perception. They hear a song about the troubles they think, IRA/PIRA/INLA or UDA/UVF/UFF Supporter = Bigot. That's it in a nutshell, changing the law in Scotland will not make any difference (Not that it will be changed). Most People when they hear these songs being sung are offended by the perceived bigotry of the singer and in the wrong place trouble will start. That's why they are banned. It may be totally unjust but trouble erupts when certain opinions are aired in Scotland as I alluded to the other day. People have the right to free speech but there is a time and a place and people who openly sing Loyalist ditties or Rebel songs in public in Scotland, especially Glasgow, Lanarkshire and Ayrshire, know full well the emotions songs such as RoH will invoke. If they are doing it to rile people, or offend their sensibilities then that is offensive. If people sing RoH in an Irish Pub or Club they will have support, no one will be offended in all probability, rather the reverse would be true. Same goes for The Sash and others. As far as i'm aware the Police in Scotland have never raided a club of Pub, or someone's house (Unless they had speakers in the windows) for playing Rebel songs, because there is little danger of trouble starting as long as cognisance is paid to the arena where it is being performed. No one goes to an Irish folk night and walks out because they are offended, but the Police and the Government know that to allow people to sing whjatever they want in "Public", is to invite trouble.
So like I said, joining up the dots. It has **** all to do with the content of the song, no matter how much you want to make it so.
Different arguments to the criminalising of songs but I know where you stand on those. The intricacies count in a court room, or at least they should. I've stated my fears that this will get railroaded through. I think it will, but I absolutely know it shouldn't. The polis have shut down several bars over the years for what has been sung in them. I can't recall the full details so I won't make an arse of it by guessing.
The only Celtic/Rangers bar I know of in Glasgow that has been raided and shut down is Bairds. Not that i'm saying others have not been shut down but none that I know of have been shut down or raided solely for the singing that went on.
A few have lost licences for sure on the strength of Police advice. I know that is something else entirely to a raid but it is indicative of an approach. I know of one in particular that beat the charge and got their licence back. That must be a good while ago now though. Maybe ten years or so.
Political thought is not outlawed, but you already know that. I dont use the word " **** " while at someone else`s dinner party, not because I find it offensive but because I understand that many people may find it so. No one has taken away my right to expression because of this. I am still able to say it in an appropriate forum. I expect the same courtesy from others. I would consider myself a republican, in that I believe in democracy and self-determination, government by the people for the people and am strongly anti-monarchist. I do not believe that no matter how strong my belief or how strong the provocation this legitamises the killing of non-combatants/innocent bystanders/however you want to term it. The song in question glorifies people who did believe this was an acceptable way to achieve their aims. You cant dress that up and finesse it any other way. It is offensive to me to have that sung in a sports stadium where I may have no choice but to listen to it and where it has adverse consequences on the team I support. The " irish heritage" of Celtic is an irrelevance. As I said it is almost 2014, singing that song - about events in another country that happened over 30 years ago - clearly has the sum total of zero to do with supporting the team. I am also offended by the hijacking of my team by others to inappropriately express their political beliefs. I am neither Roman Catholic nor have any Irish heritage, I find it as appropriate as the singing of the sash, derrys walls, the flying of Palestinian flags or the singing of Jamaican national anthem ( for want of a better anachronism ) within the environs of Celtic Park. Just another side of the same toxic coin.
I did say that the argument you want to have is not the one being had in this thread. However, the quote below allied with your comments about Mandela tell me that you really don't know who these men were and what they did and you certainly have finessed it in a way that doesn't reflect the reality of the situation. That isn't a slight, you just don't know and it would probably be best if you didn't comment on the areas where there is a knowledge defecit.
Utter bollocks, you are too blinkered by your fundamentalism to view this as any reasonable person would. You want to divorce their hunger strike while in prison - they were not in prison for believing in republicanism but for the actions they thought this allowed them to take - from the reason they were imprisoned in the first place. A complete nonsense.
Not in the slightest RL. It is a knowledge of the subject matter that allows me to offer an informed appraisal. I know what they were imprisoned for and whilst absolutely a robust resistance, their actions do not remotely resemble the 'slayer of innocents' that you are presenting. It is just ill informed emotive bullshit as far as I can see. Go and find out what it is these men did, and whilst you are at it perhaps you could find out about who Nelson Mandela was. Maybe you could learn about his resistance from his prison cell. Who he took inspiration from and whose actions he emulated. If once you have done that you think you can stand by your opinion, then come back to me and say it. It isn't fundamentalist to have an informed opinion. I don't doubt your present position will win the popular vote. That won't change the facts.
