No, I didn't think you would apologise, principally because you have not got the balls to do so. As you seem to be in possession of the facts, where did I proclaim my fear of losing my right to free speech? You are all that is wrong with open forums such as this. Either contribute sensibly, grow some and apologise or go and annoy someone else.
You really should look it up Kiwi. As briefly as I can - Mandela was a member of the ANC which had a stated policy of non violence. He saw that the anger and tension amongst the black population was building up and was in danger of exploding out of control, and reluctantly persuaded the ANC leadership that they should accept that violence was inevitable, and that they should use it to make sure it was controlled and directed. Plus of course, the peaceable approach wasn't working. Mandela set up the 'military wing' of the ANC. This was in the mid 50s. The type of violence they used was sabotage of economic targets rather than terror attacks (these came in the 80s) precisely in order to minimise loss of life. Mandela and a number of other ANC leaders (including several white communists) were arrested for treason in 1956, the trial collapsed after several years (legacy of British legal system still being in place), Mandela went on the run, was re -tried for attempting to bring down the state and jailed for life in 1963. I don't think he ever renounced violence as a tool to achieve political aims. He was offered freedom in the 80s at least twice on the condition that he would renounce it, and obviously declined. By the end of the 80s the economic conditions within South Africa, ongoing mass protest, terrorist attacks and near complete international isolation made even the apartheid government recognise that things had to change. FW de Klerk released Mandela without condition in 1990 and they spent 4 years negotiating a new constitution which would end apartheid. It is to the huge credit of both men that this was achieved without a bloodbath and descent into Zimbabwe style chaos. Mandela's refusal to dwell on revenge for the injustices of the past were critical in this. South Africa obviously has huge economic and social problems now, but given the past this is hardly surprising. In a way he was lucky to have been arrested and tried in public when he was. A few years later he may have simply been beaten to death in a police cell like Steve Biko. Hope this helps. As far as I'm concerned the ends justify the means in this case.
And now you want an Internet apology!! OK here goes - I'm so,so sorry Shefford, I'm desperate to not have my Internet username tarnished. Now can you get back to chomping on the straw, I have some work that I've put off for since yesterday - as it happens, you have given me some renewed strength to deal with a couple of Bealers that always want to be swimming against the tide just for the f... of it. Don't let the blood pressure get too high Shefford - It's an Internet site By the way - By simply starting this thread, after the closure of the original you were believing that you would test the water of your freedom to write anything you want. Your tone throughout has been one of a downtrodden martyr fighting the just cause - "Oh why cant they see what I see?" - That you've thought about reviewing your own position is also rather quaint - Did you honestly need a forum of QPR supporters to change your moralistic views - You see, you show every trait of that Village idiot - Heh look at me (Say something stupid, try to back it up forcefully and on occaisions with eloquence) and then you receive some reasoned debate back and you change your position - You know what - I don't need to try to mentor or educate you and you certainly dont need it from me. Let's just agree that we share an excellent taste in Football clubs but that it is highly unlikely we would get on in any other sphere. If my opinion of your internet persona offends, I'm sorry, I'm sure mine right now is not playing too well with you. Have a great day and live it like a Lion not a Sheep - Life's too short Shefford. For that I'm truly sorry.
Well, thanks for the apology, but you have rather dramatically failed to cover the question I put to you. You have a great day yourself, bye.
Thanks for that sb, very informative. The struggle in SA at the time needs to be put into context, where you had in power what to some people (myself included) was a 'terrorist' government. Is not the sending of letter bombs (like the one that killed Ruth First) also the act of a terrorist organisition ?? As your last line says..., IMO, the ends justify the means. A lot of credit, as you rightly point out, should also be put at the feet of FW De Klerk, who was also a great mover in the move to end apartheid.
Thats correct but when you target civilians, you are always a terrorist. Fair enough calling someone a freedom fighter when they are targeting military or another country.
Possibly, but why should the truth be hidden. As a nation we have tried to deny our crimes against others as referred to in my comment about the empire. Mandela did not renounce terrorism at any stage during his imprisonment which was why he was jailed for as long as he was.
One of us has definitely missed something here but I'm too confused to know which of us it is aha. It was more of a joke than anything and I don't know anywhere near enough about Mandela to engage in a debate about him.
For me the biggest challenge is what lies ahead now for South Africa. The black people might have gained a vote and a few more freedoms due to the end of apartheid but for the vast majority of black South Africans life as become progressively worse. And I'm affraid will continue to get far worse. There is all this talk of revenge attacks and killing the whites. But it's those very white people who employ so many of the blacks (and whites). The ANC government undoubtedly inherited a country whose infrastructure and economy and wealth was very first world. This is now being thrown away. I do not believe that any african government has or will ever have the ability to run anything, let alone a country. As for job creation, wealth distribution etc. No chance. In the end what will happen is that the rich white people will simply be purged of everything they have, money/houses/cars etc. But there is not enough of that for all and sundry. Thus will then start to turn on each other. And this is how Africa has been running since the end of colonisation. It will never change.
Strange then that economic growth in Africa is running at 4 - 5% whereas we are punching the air at 0.8%. A massive and hugely complicated continent which you feel able to generalise about, on, frankly, racist grounds - to paraphrase 'Africans can't run anything'. Of course there are many immense problems including corruption a very low economic base etc, but for much of sub-Saharan Africa, which was run by Europeans until the relatively recent past (my lifetime) simply in order to exploit natural resources and labour, the time to build a skilled and educated workforce and political class has been very limited - 20 years in the case of South Africa. Yet in those 20 years the wages of the black majority have risen, on average, by 170%. They are still only one sixth of the average white wage, which just goes to how how exploited they were before 1994. As for infrastructure being world class, ever been to a township? Have a look at whats been going on in Senegal, Mauritius, Cape Verde, Uganda and Sierra Leone recently to see some real progress being made. If you believe the stuff in your post, what are you doing to help? Pontificating from a position of ignorance and leaving a nasty taste in the mouth is hardly going to make a difference.
Wow, am I on GC? - I've really got to stop browsing this thread!!!! The above which I cannot even justify by giving it a name is so far removed from the truth and full of ignorance and inexperiencethat it beggars belief someone would bother to spend the time to write it!!! In my proffesional life I have substantial dealings with the vast majority of Africa ranging from Libya to Nigeria and Angola. I'm pretty sure you can work out the conniving Industry I'm in. Got to tell you when I see how hard these Governments fight to ensure that the wealth of this Industry is spread throughout the local economy it is impressive. Can tell you we hate the pressure that is put on us in these areas as it is far "easier" doing "nice" business in the more "developed" World but we continue there as this is where the growth is coming from. You really need to go to places like Ghana to see what Africa is truly like and as for the Black population not advancing - You keep telling yourself that whilst the Chinese keep pouring and investing in Africa. Oh and yeah whilst we're at it, don't worry about the Chinese, they don't have a clue what they're doing and if you go back in History to see where they ruled the World, that was just a flash in the pan like this one is!!
