Do the Wenger Out brigade still want him sacked ?

It was never a case of wanting Wenger to leave but for him to start buying reinforcements in to make us a stronger unit. He is doing this now and the team is looking much more stronger and is now challenge-worthy. In all honesty, we could have done this a few years earlier and avoid our prolonged barren run. Mistakes were made and thankfully we've learnt from it.

 

For some it was definitely a case of wanting Wenger to leave.

And still is apparently.

 

This is a complete cop out. The money wasn't there to be spent, it never was. It couldn't have been done any sooner. This is another of those mechanisms that the doomers use to excuse their lack of support, and their behaviour.

I'm not saying that the club made no mistakes at all, of course they did. But, not spending money we didn't have, sticking with a youth policy and building financial strength (through restraint) is looking more and more like it has been an excellent long term plan, and is starting to pay off. It may have been painful going through it, but in 5 years time, I don't think anyone is going to say that it wasn't worth it.

 

How much money there was available for transfers over the last few years will forever be up for debate - I remember on more than one occasion in the last 4-5 years the board saying funds are available. So I do feel they were failings in the transfer department even if we only had a minimal to spend. I am all for the clubs youth recruitment policy but the likes of Arteta proved that spending affordable amounts on experience goes a long way. I don't know about others but my main complaint wasn't transfers but tactics. Wenger has changed that since Jan of this year with the club much more defensive minded something we haven't seen before. Also a willingness to adapt to the opposition - he has become far more practical in that sense. The way we played against Dortmund is something he would not have done last year.

I still think he is the right man for the job (always did) but you have to appreciate that there is a line between criticism and wanting him out. The problem with football forums is that you are either one side of the line or the other there is no reasoned debate allowed. Effectively if someone says something reasonable you are automatically either Love/Hate. Its the theory I have on fundamentalists vs Idealists - 2% are fundamentalists, 2% are extreme idealists - the other 96% are somewhere in between and just want to get on with it but because the annoying 4% are so ****ing committed and loud you don't hear anything else. So even when someone pops up to say something they are automatically shunted into one group or the other.

N.B. On a side I am also a firm believer that fundamentalists and extreme idealists are the exact same in terms of personalities and character traits - just the way they express there beliefs is different.

 

I think this is it in a nutshell

Most people could see that Wenger was doing a decent job given the financial landscape, but that he also needed to improve on certain areas - defensive organisation for one.

As for the board, I still maintain that the individuals on our board when Hill-Wood was chairman put their own interests before the club during the last eight years.

 

On the button

 

One ex board member certainly put his interests over those of the club so much so that he allegedly made £75 million

 

Yeah but that was after they booted him out ...

 

I think you have made a great point with extreme opinions and then ignored it yourself.

There probably was *some* money available for transfers, but nowhere near what was required in order to make a run at Chelsea, United, and City in their pomp. Similarly money *could* have been saved, but not enough to make a real difference.

As for the tactical side, I am always disinclined to talk tactics because I think that we as outsiders know less than we think about top level tactics and what really is going on. However I feel that some or all of the teams we have had since the Invincibles have not been suited to dropping back and defending the way that this team is.

We definitely experimented with the Dortmund/Barcelona type press in the past. Neither of those two teams are equipped to drop back and grind out a win. It is live and die by the sword. In England where there are a lot of teams that can beat you, I think it is a poor tactic. However, if you have a team like Barcelona, with a dodgy back 4, and not very defensive midfielders, dropping back into two banks of 4 is probably suicide.

So, in my mind, were mistakes made financially?
Yes, but not enough to have made a significant difference and make up about 50M/year transfer fees and 50M+/year wages.

Were mistakes made tactically?
Yes (possibly), but suggesting some other tactic with the squad we had and saying that a different tactic would have worked back then is very speculative. The other tactics did not work, but that doesn't mean that other tactics would have. To say otherwise is creating a false dichotomy.

 

Mistakes were made tactically, that's for darn sure. We used to play Bendtner almost as a right winger! If that's not a tactical error I don't know what is. I mean, really, who plays Bendtner?!

I also wouldn't have played him as a winger...

 

He could be the pool attendant?

 

Too easily confused with the inflatables these days.

 

and that will be again in March / April 2014!

 

Why? We'd have wrapped up the Prem by then.

 

Other than Kyle, who is a confirmed depressant. All of the other people who have voted 'Yes' so far are either Mancs, Scousers or lost spuds.

Their vote to sack Wenger is a endorsement of his virtue to our club

 

How So??

I never say run at chelsea or city, even in our current healthy state i think that is impossible. I merely state that solid players were available within our budget which we missed out on due to a overly optimistic youth project. The balance we have now between experience/youth is a much better ideal. In a way you can argue that had we bought more experienced players earlier the likes of Ramsey and Wilshere won't be where they are but that doesn't negate the failures before and is said entirely in hindsight. That being said it is always with hindsight so is a tricky subject to broach.

Well obviously. But that is with everything in life, you got a fav movie, music, play, book etc??? What now we are not allowed to debate anything we don't have a PHD in?? On a football forum where people specifically come to debate things as tactics, teams, players etc it is redundunt to say we don't as much as people in the game. Obviously we don't that doesn't mean we can't. An argument against a suggested point can't be well they no more so shut it. It is a childish way of dealing with it and is pointless.

I like the way you say we don't know what goes on but still try to justify/explain our tactics. If your first point holds then your second is pointless. But like all of us you have an opinion, surprise, surprise. Also honestly if that is your opinion then fair enough but others on the board differ from yours and thats ok to. If you realise that when making many of your sanctimonious posts you would find the discourse far more enriching.

Here is my biggest issue with you - you have become so entranced in your opinion that every criticism is entirely ANTI-ARSENAL that most of the times you reply with the preset that the person is anti arsenal. Regardless of how innocuous there post might be. Also we are back to the well " what you are saying is speculative so has no value argument you constantly employ". Well that argument in itself is speculative and therefore redundant. If someone posts something argue the merits of the point they raise or ignore it. Don't come back with "your just guessing, but your wrong"


N.B. - Quite a few beers/cocktails in so some parts might be gibberish.

 

Well, I'm not sure how you got I was saying you were anti-Arsenal out of what I wrote in the post you quoted, but that aside.

How so; well if you are saying that there were significant amounts of cash around (enough to make a difference) and they were not spent (for whatever reason) then that is a very extreme view. You might not realize you are accusing the Arsenal management of it, but at the very least it is professional incompetence/negligence and given that for a period Arsenal was a publically traded company, possibly criminal as well, depending on their motivation. Just saying that "solid players" (in your opinion) were available, means nothing though. Spurs have just signed a team of "Solid players" according to most of the doomers who were lamenting our signings this past summer, and we can see how that is working for them!

I'm not sure what your point about the tactics is. You seem to jump from one side to the other, maybe that was the cocktails. I was really saying that I don't feel comfortable defending Wenger's tactics, because I am not qualified to do that. If you feel qualified to criticize him, then have at it, I'm not stopping you. I also think sometimes that I spot tactical mistakes in the ways we play, but generally I have the humility to realize there is a pretty good chance that I am wrong.

The final bit is a bit weird to me. Speculate all you like, but if it has no basis in fact or you can't demonstrate any foundation for your speculation, then you just become like one of those wierdos on the street ranting about the world coming to an end. You are the one making the claim, so the burden of proof falls upon you to prove your extreme view of this conspiracy to defraud Arsenal, the fans and the shareholders, and to not try to win. It is not my job to disprove it. I'm just telling you that you haven't proved it, or even come close to proving it as far as I can see.

 

How are chavs voting?

I'm hearing this year will be your year

 

You can check the voting yourself I take every vote for Wenger out from an opposition fan as an endorsement of his value to Arsenal

In a kind of Long Live AVB sort of way

 

LOL AVB and the negative spiral