OT - Über's Open Debate Thread

There in a nutshell is the shallow, duplicitous nature of religious belief. There are so many things wrong with that statement that I couldn't possibly have time to pick it apart but the worst crime of such a way of thinking, for me would be cowardice. A fear of death so overwhelming that it compels man to live his life trying to please a god in case he subjects him to eternal torture in an afterlife. Its a very primitive fear that our species has always had, something akin to being afraid of the dark. When I hear religious people speak in such a fearful and pitiful manner, an image of my dog trembling in fear underneath the car during a thunderstorm pops into my head. All Mammals are scared sh*tless of things they don't understand.

This is not a personal attack on you Willy, its just me highlighting what I believe to be one of the many immoral hypocrisies prevalent among a lot of the religious. Once again, respect to you for standing up and arguing your case.

BTW, would a just Creator think much of someone who's only purpose for believing was the fear of punishment? I know I'd personally respect someone more who gave two fingers to it all and didn't allow fear dictate their life. But hey, that's just my opinion.

 

I agree with you, Willy. There have been many underserving yet extremely vile attacks on the faith of quiet, gentle people. In this brave new world of tolerance, why is it that those with quiet faith are seen as legitimate targets by the 'enlightened'?

 

I've since just read the rest of the posts on this page and as I should have expected, Stan has already covered everything I said - but in a far better way.

Pascal's wager eh? I'd not heard of that one. Must look it up.

 

I disagree. You're the one making the claims so the burden of proof is on you. If I said the book called "Gulliver's travels" was a factually correct account of a piece of history, it wouldn't be up to you to disprove it.

When someone makes an outlandish claim, the onus to prove it is on them entirely.

 

I don't understand why this position is shallow, duplicitous or an immoral hypocrisy, Swordsie. It seems to be to be an entirely rational position. Willy can fight his own battles, of course, but he's own setting out his own rationale here; I don't believe he's implying everybody should do as he does because of this.

 

Bloody hell, I'm two steps behind all the time on this one aren't I!!

That's what happens when you get up late on a Saturday morning I suppose.

 

You agreed with Willy above that posters were "attacking" people with faith on this thread. I just think Willy tends to be too sensitive when it comes to debates. When I was a Christian, I liked nothing more than people putting these arguments to me so I could attempt to debate them. There's nothing personal in any of this and again, my post you quoted above is NOT ATTACKING WILLY! Its attacking religious people's belief systems. Billions of them!

Its nowt personal believe me!

 

One of the (many) reasons I do not believe in a God is that I cannot understand the rationale.

If there is a God why are there so many different religions and why do they fight. Please do not produce the free will argument, a small kid brought up in the middle of rural Pakistan does not have the freedom of will to pick a Protestant/Church of England or a Salt Lake City Mormon God (both of which he knows nothing of). If he is of a religious and believing nature he will chose a Muslim Allah....he will spend his life living a virtuous and giving life, to all he meets and when he dies, he will spend eternity in purgatory as an infidel. I hope not, if that is so...God is not a person I could respect. The list of examples like that is endless. The atheist/ Jew who spends their life doing good..... The Buddhist monks, who work only for charity, avoiding killing a single living creature. In the opposite camp...the terrorists who kill in the name of religion.

The argument that all the evil and bad in this world (both personally and globally) are just trials for us to show our faith...again paints a picture of a very strict, controlling and self-questioning God.
I just do not get it!

My mother told me here religion was simply " do as you would be done by" . I have tried to live by that edict (although this week has not been one of my best, and I am going to try and rectify a few things in the future). If I am wrong I will meet many of you in Hell/Purgatory along with the atheists, the Samaritans and the little Islamic boy from rural Pakistan

 

Aah, the standard response - let's throw a completely fatuous and ridiculous comparison and use this as the basis of their point.

Firstly - for someone who is not trying to attack (and be fair, if you're not attacking me it would be out of character for you) you do use many very carefully selected and provocative words (such as faith being an 'outlandish; claim, and also 'shallow', 'duplicitous', 'immoral' and 'hypocrisy'. Can I suggest that if you really wnt to debate sensibly without giving any offense or appearing to be attacking individuals and their beliefs, you moderate the terms you use when describing them? As soon as this even hints at getting personal (and believe me,Swords - when you get involved in things, threads go that way very quickly indeed) I'm just going to walk away from the thread, because that's not the point here. Do me a favour and bear that in mond for any replies? Thanks

And secondly - a repeat of my oft-stated position - atheism IS a belief system. It's the belief that their is no God and no afterlife. Saying it's not is just like me saying "I don't believe that there's nothing there" but offering no reason for that - just simply continuing to disagree in the possibility that this is all there is. And I have yet to see anyone on this thread even try to defend their non-faith position without it simply being a rebuttal/attack of my beliefs, or a denial that they have any structure or basis for their position. That's all I have asked for, and I'm still waiting, patiently and politely.

 

Oh dear, time to stop. Have you read the previous responses?

Why do I feel the need to attack religion/ faith?
- because people of faith provide a constant, daily threat to my physical well being through terrorism. And massive inconvenience at airports
- because some people of faith believe the end of the world is a good thing and have incentive to see it happen. Some of these people may be in a position to actually bring this closer.
- because people of faith do stuff like this, which sickens me to the core

[video=youtube_share;RSwZJ55g80Q]http://youtu.be/RSwZJ55g80Q[/video]

- because religious faith is underpinned on the kind of ignorance that allows Buddhists to wipe out Muslims in Burma, lets Catholics think that contracting HIV is preferable to using a condom, that your life is irrelevant because you have been chosen for salvation or not since the dawn of time
- I could go on, but you get the message.

Your personal belief is not threatening to me, unless it includes the stuff about the apocalypse (3rd time Willy....) and you keep it to yourself. If numbers are indeed limited in heaven, it beats me why anyone would want to spread the word anyway. Indeed, as I've said several times on this thread, if it makes you happy, great.

Regarding your inability to understand the fact that atheism/anti-theism are defined by opposition to religion/theocracy I'm not sure there is anything more I can do to explain it. I've given you the reference.

Let's cut this short, it comes down to this:

You say "I have faith, you just don't get it"
I say " You're right, I don't get it. And I don't need it".

 

If your main objection is Islamic terrorists and the hatred spilled out by Westboro Baptist Church, I'm sorry. Both for their gross and in many instances abominable misrepresentation of what belief in a loving God should be, and also for your inability (consciously or otherwise) to acknowledge that you are taking the evil actions of an extreme minority as an accurate reflection of the billions of believers around the world for whom such acts of hatred are as abhorrent as they are to you.

However, that's not the truth for so many, many people. People who do not abdicate their responsibility for a positive, worthwhile life here on earth in the hope that it will be nice once they die. People who see the suffering many, both globally and on their own doorstep, and resolve to try and make a difference.

 

....and I'd still like to know whether your faith includes belief in the Second Coming, an apocalyptic end to the world, and a day of judgement. Because, as I have said several times, any belief in the need for an apocalypse brings with it at worst the desire to speed up its arrival, and at best a determination not to stop it happening. Which is certainly of interest to me.

 

Ok, three answers before I'm off out...

The source for whether extreme violence, suicide and mass murder is right or wrong is clearly that its wrong. Not just because its common sense, but that these things are nowhere encouraged or condoned in any holy books.

Secondly, I will answer with two quotes from a particular book, so I expect you to take it with a pinch of salt: the bible says we are saved by faith, not by works. It also says that faith without works is nothing. Which as I understand it means that yes, hard work - even good work - wont earn anyone a place in heaven. But unless you couple that faith with good works, and the faith has no effect on how you live, it's just an empty gesture.

And thirdly, I do believe in the 'end days' but whether they will take the exact form of Revelation, I don't know. I also don't know, as you, what will trigger the events. But think on this. You reckon the end will come when the sun approaches critical mass, expands into a red giant, and engulfs our planet in fire, searing all life and atmosphere before the planet explodes. Sounds pretty apocalyptic to me. Whose end is worse, yours or mine?

 

I'll be dead, and hopefully not called back to face judgement by a being which I never believed existed, by the time the sun engulfs us mate, so not a huge concern. For what its worth I think that we as a species won't survive that long anyway, we'll join the other 99.9% of all the species that have ever existed on earth in blissful extinction. But that's another discussion.

Sadly genocide, murder of children, rape and enslavement of captives are specifically condoned in at least the Old Testament. Slavery, subservience of women and the 'sin' of homosexuality feature in the New Testament. As the Koran is largely an inept re write of the Torah and the New Testament I'll bet its equally barbaric.

Enjoy your night out.

 

It surely can't be right that a God would only welcome believers into his Kingdom? What kind of cruel God is that?

 

Presumably the same God that allows babies to be born with congenital health problems that give them short, painful lives, or the one who allows Tsunami's to wipe out hundreds of thousands of people in a few seconds, or thinks, rather than death, leprosy would be fun to hand around. Note I don't include any of the offences man perpetrates against his own kind. Don't look for logic and rationality in this stuff Col - that's my advice anyway.

 

Its not actually. Gulliver's Travels is as factually correct to me as the bible is. Both are works of fiction and should be treated as such.

You say one of them is the word of god so I say the burden of proof is on you. You're the one making such an outlandish assertion, not me.

Once again, you're taking things to heart when you really shouldn't. As with the recent Woy Hodgson "racism" story, you fail to differentiate between arguing a topic and arguing something personal. For a man of faith, you sure do have a short fuse when it comes to someone disagreeing with you.

You suggest I "moderate the terms" I use. Willy, if I said "how are you today?" you would find offence in there somewhere mate!

You say I "attack individuals and their beliefs". No, I disagree with ("attack" if you prefer) their beliefs. There is nothing individual about it my friend. There are billions of others with your religious beliefs and I disagree with them also. That cannot be and is not personal, Willy. Besides, your beliefs are not sacrosanct. They are just as debatable and as flawed as anyone else's. Please don't attribute a false sense importance to them. That's another common trait of "believers" and its not something those of us with no belief appreciate nor respect.

I'll leave you to it on this one because it seems like no matter what subject I debate with you, you blow your top off!

 

I think I said something similar earlier in the thread.
The main thing for me is that people who are religious basically have faith, which means that no matter what scientific evidence is presented to them, their "faith" remains solid. In all my many conversations with intelligent "believers", they simply will not accept that their faith is flawed.
In the end, we just have to agree to differ I suppose.

Until someone can unquestionably prove things one way or the other, the debate will rage on. Although it seems that those that believe in God are becoming less in number and unfortunately, more extreme in nature.

 

I did no such thing; my exact words were: 'There have been many underserving yet extremely vile attacks on the faith of quiet, gentle people.'
I neither said that these were attacks on Willy, nor that they were on this thread, because I was speaking in general terms.

Your direct response to Willy's remark was: 'There in a nutshell is the shallow, duplicitous nature of religious belief. There are so many things wrong with that statement that I couldn't possibly have time to pick it apart but the worst crime of such a way of thinking, for me would be cowardice.'

I'm happy to clear that up for you.