OT - Über's Open Debate Thread

Fair enough Willy, its pretty clear where we stand and there will be no meeting of the minds on this one.

 

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Stroller, this is almost spot on.

I couldn't agree more with your sentiments above regarding your own morals and not needing a god to tell you what's right or wrong? That's a pretty scary thought really, people who claim to need a god to show them right from wrong? By that reasoning, I'd ask "if you found out, for certain, that god doesn't exist, who would be the first person you'd kill?". Morals predate religion, we had them thousands of years before a group of men got together and ripped off a few other religions and created christianity.

And as for god's law over man?? The bible, koran et al are full of the most evil acts imaginable, rape, murder, slavery, sodomy to name but a few.

Luckily, most people who claim to follow the word of god actually follow their version of god. One that teaches them to treat people well, don't steal, don't murder, honour their parents etc. I have no doubt that those on this board that are religious don't follow the word of the bible to the letter, I'm sure, for example, they've worn linen and cotton at the same time without fear of punishment or taken the lords name in vain without believing they should be put to death.

People are free to believe what they like, if it gives them some comfort to think there is an absolute power in the universe that controls everything and everyone and that when you die, you get to live with him in his kingdom, that's fine, I have no problem with that whatsoever. What I take issue with is when the religious do sick things in the name of that god, blow themselves up in a crowded market, tell women in Africa that they are now cured of AIDS and to continue to copulate, mutilate the genitals of children (an act that continues daily in this country) for no medical reason. I could go on and on and on.

The only part I don't agree with Stroller, is the last line. I would hate to find out that there is such a god, because if there is one, he is either incompetent or simply evil, why else would he let all the atrocities happen around the world every day?

From reading through some of this thread it's been refreshing to see people with a common interest (QPR) have totally different views on religion and debate in respectful, friendly manner. I hope my thoughts don't change that tone.

 

It is certainly interesting to note that the more fervent, more fundamental, more outspoken views on this thread appear to be from those who profess their belief in atheism..... I'm not sure why that is, and whether a similarly fervent, outspoken Christian or Muslim would be labeled a zealot, a bigot, or worse, a potential terrorist fundamentalist...

{Added for debate}

 

Atheism isn't a belief, it's simply not believing in theists, a-theism. However, as a human I have strong beliefs when it comes to the evil that is done around the world, unfortunately a lot of it is done in the name of religion.

I hope the line about being a bigot, zealot etc is a joke.

 

See, the bit highlighted above is another thing that worries me about religion. What you are basically saying is that if you follow Jesus and the word of god then you will be able to join him in his kingdom when you die, if you don't, according to the bible, you will be thrown into hell? So, for example, a child born in Pakistan to Muslim parents is already predetermined to go hell, this is already decided before they're born? And, of course, god created everything so he created this child, decided to have her born to parents who don't follow him so is condemning her to eternal damnation? On the other hand, Josef Fritzl, Adolf Hitler and any number of evil monsters are able to join god in his kingdom by simply asking for forgiveness?

 

In the spirit of debate I think the atheist views expressed are certainly fervent but not fundamentalist (that would involve advocating blowing up believers, or denying their right to exist, or convicting them of apostasy - cf Iran) and probably outspoken only from the perspective of believers. Not speaking for anyone else, but I think there has been a rise of willingness to speak out, loudly, from atheists in recent years - partly in response to the fact that it is only comparatively recently that we have been able to without persecution; partly in response to the atrocities ranging from terrorism and child abuse to genocide advocated or protected by organised religion; and partly because it is frankly liberating to abandon all attempts at feigned respect for what we believe are at best daft and at worst evil beliefs.

One of the more refreshing elements of modern life, which is mostly rubbish.

 

Atheism is just as much a belief system as any religion. And no - sadly it's not a joke, as experience shows that anyone strongly professing a sincere belief in God tends to be branded as a bigot or zealot by those who disagree.

The issue of bad things being done in the name of religion is that it's being done by people specifically against the teachings of said religions - but that tends to get forgotten in the name of a good Daily Mail headline sadly. And the billions of good people doing good things all over the world every single day, driven in their heart by their faith, doesn't make the headlines, and so in our media-driven society they don't exist...

 

This is exactly why I didn't want to get into an argument, and exactly where I saw the thread going.

Don't ask me to give you the answer, read the bible and see what it says for yourself. Nothing I can say will in any way appease you, and vice versa I think.

However, you you've just broken Godwin's Law of online debate by bringing Hitler into the argument......

 

And what others believe are at best life-changing,and at worst misrepresented beliefs - the danger is when that misrepresentation becomes justification for violence and hatred. But that's the fault of the people - not the religion. These people would easily find another reason to behave as they do if they weren't choosing their particular religion to hang their hat on.

 

I'm sorry, but it's not, atheism is not a belief, it simply means the lack of belief in god or gods. Would you say that off is tv channel? Is not playing golf a sport? Is not believing in unicorns a belief?

Just because you believe in a god would not make you a bigot in my eyes, being a bigot would, your religious views would only matter to me if they impacted on me or someone else in a negative way.

I'm not saying there isn't a lot of good done around the world by religious groups, of course there is, there is also a lot of good around the world by those that don't believe in a god.

Unfortunately, when it comes to evil in the name of religion, it's always going to make more headlines. And, unfortunately, most people that commit such atrocities do so in the belief they are following the word of their god and in most cases, according to their doctrine, they are.

 

Sorry, but I disagree. Atheism is the belief that there is no God. When people get so vocal about it, it certainly goes way above a simple refusal to agree.

That statement isn't mine, but that of a friend of mine who is also an atheist.


Oh, and 'is not playing golf a sport'? That's funny....

 

How can you misrepresent a lie? Thats the unbridgeable gap Willy, if you have faith your arguments hold water, if you don't they just compound the fallacy. There is no common ground. From my perspective;
- not all good in the world is done by people of faith
- a lot of bad is done by people of faith who sincerely believe they are acting faithfully - what greater sacrifice is there than that of the suicide bomber? Surely this would make any God at best apathetic or disinterested, at worst malicious.
- your personal beliefs are your business, but as soon as these beliefs impact on me they become my business. And I'm afraid any belief system that requires an apocalypse most definitely impacts on me as long as people who believe in it are in a position to bring that apocalypse closer, and not be scared about it as they think they are already saved. I don't care how much good Christians do, if they believe the end of the world is a good thing I have a problem.

 

Willy, I don't see this as an argument, I'm genuinely interested in the thoughts of the religious when it comes to questions like that? Usually, the response is the exactly the same as you've given.

I have read the bible, at least an awful lot of it, and it's for that very reason that I became an atheist.

You've been good enough to come forward and debate your beliefs when most wouldn't. It appears as though my posts are being aimed at you, I sincerely don't want that to be the case, my views and questions are aimed at religion as a whole, you are just being honest enough to answer them.

I'm quite happy to stop the conversation and hope I haven't offended you or anyone else.

 

Willy..........firstly thank you for being so open about your beliefs. I think that you and I aren't as far apart in our beliefs as it may at first appear. Whilst I certainly don't believe in a religious God, I do believe that there's a creative force of some kind that made/helped to make our Universe. Once it was created though, I don't believe there is any "controlling" influence from that creative force. I also can't believe in a God who allows 4 year old girls to be butchered to death by the family pet or thousands of people to be killed by a tsunami etc.
I believe that religion was created by man to mainly control the masses and call them to the big church on the hill to make sure they do as they're told or face eternal damnation.
Does this mean that anyone who doesn't believe in God won't go to heaven? What do you think Heaven is?

I actually think that some kind of life from beyond our solar system has visited us in the past and could well have started us off (mating with monkeys perhaps). They also could have helped with the amazing feats of the past such as the building of the pyramids etc.
One day, they may come back and tell all!! They could possibly be the creative force that I've mentioned.......it's all conjecture I know.

I feel that religion is a personal thing and shouldn't be taught in schools. The young can make their own minds up, as I did and have consequently changed my views as I've become more informed as I've got older. I also fear how many more lives will be taken in the name of religion. I also really dislike the way some religions want to be set apart from others; not allowing their children to eat at the same table as the other children in primary schools for example.

I do, though, acknowledge that very good work is carried out by people who are religious throughout the world. But I believe those good deeds can be carried out without religion coming into it. All the values of religion like "love thy neighbour" etc are simply good things that we should all be doing as good citizens.

Stan......I can't be so laid back about the meaning of everything and how we came about mate. I think us humans have always questioned everything and strived for knowledge. That's how we've found cures for diseases and made huge technological leaps. We'll always ask the most difficult questions and I believe that we'll find the answers one day............long after I'm gone unfortunately!

 

Everything you say, I say the opposite. You say you can't misrepresent a lie, I say you can, if its either not a lie, or its a lie that isn't misrepresented.

I also say that much good is done by people of faith and much evil is done by people who are simply evil, and who have no religious belief.

Lets leavi it there, because its going nowhere fast and reasoned debate is falling apart quickly.

Laters, guys, I'm off out to go do some good....

 

It does appear that you've been ganged up on a little Willy. I really respect your view and enjoy debating these things with religious people. Just about everyone I've talked these things through with, who was from a religious view-point, has been very intelligent and I always find their view interesting, even if I can't agree with most of them.

 

As I said, the gap is unbridgeable. I don't think the debate was falling apart, we are just sharing views with no expectation (at least on my part) that these views will be changed. You asked why atheist, or in my case anti-theist, people seem to be getting more strident. I hope at least, you have gained some insight into why many of us feel strongly that belief in a God should be robustly challenged.

And you are right Willy, now I think about it, you can misrepresent a lie. But the sentence looked groovy when I wrote it.

 

....then we'll find some more questions Col. What's the smallest thing you can think of? Halve it......It's worth having these discussions even if we don't add to the sum of human knowledge as a result, its good brain exercise.

 

I've read most of this thread and really enjoyed it. It has served to enhance my love of QPR by proving that I share my passion with some deep, thoughtful minds and that my decision to be an R all those years ago was a good one. Can you imagine a conversation like this in a pub on the fulham road?

A thought on the theme of religion and more accurately, the afterlife. Are there only 2 options? Heaven or hell? If the only way into heaven is to have followed Jesus and conformed with a life of Christianity, then what about those who have led a life of peace and love and self sacrifice for the benefit of others, without specifically doing it in the name of god? What becomes of them.