OT - Über's Open Debate Thread

I apologies to anyone who considers themselves a Celt. I did a quick google on the most brutal races in history and the Celts came up. I didn't say they had killed millions of people. I meant no offence.

On the issue of whether I'm proud to be English? I'm with Stainsey. Hugely proud of my Country and Heritage. I really admire ANYONE who is proud of the Country they come from.
Fair play to Swords too..............you didn't jump on the tosh bandwagon that Queens was galloping into town on and instead pointed out the many good deeds carried out by the British Empire. Many, many people all around the world are very fond of the British for improving their way of life and I find that, mostly it is the "hate my own Country" types who yell that everyone hates us. Ruling most of the World at one time obviously brings with it jealousy and resentment..............MUCH OF IT TOTALLY JUSTIFIED. But as Swords pointed out, that was the way of the world..........invade, conquer and rule. I don't believe that is how things should be done today and I was completely against the invasion of Iraq, although the Afghan conflict was more justifiable imo as covered by Stan somewhere earlier on here.

In this modern World I don't believe that the British, or anyone else should try to impart their beliefs etc onto foreign lands, simply because we believe we're right and never, ever in the name of religion.

If being patriotic and being proud of my heritage makes me "the like of Col" then good!!

I feel the biggest mistake anyone can make is to apply today's standards and morals to what was carried out during the past Centuries.

 

As a footnote, Queens.
I met a guy today who was the son of a (then) child who was saved on the 'Kindertransport'. It prompted me to look up the story of what happened (I'd never heard of it to be honest), and after reading how Britain as a country saved 10,000 mostly Jewish kids from almost certain death.....It's made me extremely proud of our country.

You see mate..For every Ying there is a Yang.

 

Was watching the FAI Cup Final today. Very good game actually. The team that won it is managed by ex-Ranger Ian Baraclough. He won the league last year as well and also qualified for Europe two seasons running. I know its small fry but a Manager has got to start somewhere and he can't have done any better than he has done so far at that level.

Keep your eye out. He could be one for the future.

 

The perils of the internet.

 

Firstly let me say that i think you may have taken this the wrong way. "The likes of Col' refers to you as a patriotic proud Englishman. i too am the same and have nukmrous tatts of our St Goerge cross on my body to show this. So if i have offended, even innocently, then i publically appologise.
Next, as Swords says, The english (British) have given the world so much good, as have the Americans and "Asia". This is an undeniable fact.
My posts were to designed to highlight the negatives we have done as a country. i have never denyed the positives.
Its like the old sketch in life of Brian..."What have the Romans ever done for Us?"

There is no doubt that we were / are a horible race but have evolved. Still not convinced that we should be proud of what we have done, but certainly convinced we are a nation to be proud of....Does that make sense.

as for the rest, i have to say that this is the best thread i have ever posted on in my life and I'd be devastated if a few stupid comments from me caused its demise !

Dont even get me started on fat people !!

Just a flyer..i was a qualified gym instructor when i played years ago. I lost count of the amount of players that asked me to write them a gym program or asking how to loose weight.
My answer was always the same...dont eat chips & kebabs and dont drink too much beer. you dont need to pay me 40 quid/hr to know what you already know !

Point is., its down to self control, desire, parenting and having a goal. If you dont need to be fit to play fotball, rugby,pick up women etc..then why would you?
Kids need a reason to get up in the morning...
As for the smoking issue Fing, firstly well done mate. thats a great result and i know its hard. Everything in moderation eh?

Stainsey...definately agree with you mate..

 

Getting back to the conspiracy theory thing..Im currently sitting here watching a docu stating that the fatal shot that killed kennedy was fired by one of the security gaurds it the car.
Oswald missed first time but richoched into kennedy, 2 shot hit presedent 3 rd shot was from machine gun held by george hickey who picked the gun up from the floor of the car.
Plenty of pictures and film that show it...that was possibly the cover up?!
Show falsified autopsy, staged pic, threats etc...the bloke wrote a book called Mortal Error....shows how the CIA was the one who fired the fatal shot by mistake..?
Well worth a look.
doesnt explain if there is any reson behind it. there are only a few pics showing him with the AK47. most were destroyed. Intrestng stuff & certainly something ive not seen before.
Its JFK month out here and gonna get loads of this...Love it !

 

I watched the game too Swords. Just to say that Ian Baraclough manages Sligo Rovers. They beat Drogheda United.

It was a very enjoyable game to watch unlike some league of Ireland games which normally bore me senseless.

 

Uber for moderator! Well said

 

Of course and I think by saying that we the British have been real ****s goes a long way at understanding that

To go onto auto pilot about how Great Britain is IMO come telly dumb

We could create a very long list of brilliant things but not thinking we are the best at everything or taking credit and bending the truth is dreamland

England today without London simply wouldn't survive IMO you still have too many pockets of brainwashed people who still think daft

Just one logistical crisis in this country could stop it from working example a fuel shortage

We produce **** all and buy in most

Culture of the average family still revolves around a TV where we are drip fed from a calendar marketplace

We are getting fatter and drink too much

We can't even handle weather or nature without having a wishy washy moan ... In short controlled hot air with no action or function

Our wildlife are in Farm Zoos

This comes from a man who cut off piglets balls at 5 can kill clean and prep animals for food

Mrs DT ( City mouse) wouldn't touch a bit of Salmon is it wasn't served in packaging and have the word Organic on it .

This is not a rant but simply a stock check on where we are

My next 30 years aren't doing this bollocks hence my French escape route ... Its a personal choice and while everyone hopes for equity or a pension that may well under perform I am going to be living and laughing

I only work like today to go on holiday and work it to have ten a year

London is the best city IMO but the rest of Britain is bending into a dilute porridge

 

I can faintly remember him playing for us Fingi. As far as I remember, he was part of that awful squad that got us relegated in 2001. I don't think he was one of the bad apples that didn't care though. Was he a defender or midfield? My memory seems to have blocked out most of that dismal period.

Who knows, he could make it to the top as a Manager. Remember, old Toad face Allardyce started managing in Ireland and he's done alright!

 

One thing that is lamentable has been the demise of British car manufacturing. If you look back through the decades, the British made some of the World's great cars but now it all seems to be outsourced to Germany and the like.

A shame that.

 

I'm not really sure if this is a criticism of what I've posted or not. If you think I'm sitting here waving the Union Jack and toasting the Queen then I think you've perhaps misunderstood some (all?) of my posts; or perhaps I've misunderstood you? To be honest it's hard to tell from what you've written.

 

Not at all Husky agreeing with your statement that things need to evened out ...

It's the people who without question wave the UJ blanket and put down any other opinions other than Britain is the greatest ... It isn't and hasn't been for some time that is Fact

I am still smarting from the bloody Olympics and hated most of it ... it was totally sickening and I would love to see people convicted and shot from the scams and money made

I hate the fact that on the BBC News when a disaster strikes they make it clear that no Britons were involved or go over the top if a few are involved

Apologies but was on a bumpy train on a iPhone before that replaces my words with other words that don't mean the same things ... that's not an excuse I talk crap

 

Fair enough. I get where you're coming from, and to a certain extent I agree. But I'd say that a lot of countries suffer from similar ailments.

 

Wasn't there a 'Not The Nine O'Clock News' sketch that said the same ?

'An Earthquake in Pakistan has killed 10,000 people but it'sok...No Britons were injured'
'A plane has crashed in Mexico, 19 people lost their lives.....But more importantly, a man from Romford stubbed his toe'

 

You're absolutely right that there should always be balance in these things, which is why I always mention the things that the British should definitely not be proud of and have done wrong throughout history.
However, for all its shortcomings, I still love my country. I don't believe that I am blinkered though and I certainly don't allow myself to be "drip fed" by the TV. Being in rural Oxfordshire means we are often outside and my job involves being out and about with nature and we certainly don't live our lives by the TV schedules.

With respect, I think its for the best that you're moving abroad, as you clearly don't like this Country much, which is entirely your right of course.

 

Back to the present. Most would agree that we are, by and large, lucky to live in a democracy, yet voter turnout and participation is declining markedly, not just in the UK. You could put this down to disillusionment with politics/politicians, but I've been reading a bit of game theory/rational choice theory recently, which has a different explanation. I don't buy into this stuff (not sure if I fully understand it, especially when it's reduced to equations - John Nash and the Rand Corporation have a lot to answer for) but undoubtedly its vicious view of human nature ( we are all essentially self interested at the cost of all else and our entire existence is built on strategizing and second guessing everyone else) has influenced many and their interpretations of 'individual liberty' - notably for us both Thatcher and Blair.
The take on voting is quite alluring though, called 'rational ignorance'. As the chance of my, individual, vote changing anything is tiny, and the time and energy I would need to invest to actually understand the issues and make an informed decision is comparatively huge, I don't bother. Either I won't vote, or will vote based on inherited, half unconscious bias. This is an entirely rational approach to take.
Any takers?

 

I've generally stayed out of the discussion regarding Britain's 'hateful' standing on the world stage until now. It would seem that there is broad acknowledgement that our country did lots and lots of bad things; things which many parts of the world, particularly those with long memories, are not yet ready to forget (and certainly not forgive). But I believe there is some truth in the argument that the world was a very different place 100, 200 years ago. It was harsher. People were harsher. Life was harsher. Much of the time, somewhere, somebody was at war or under threat. Many of the peoples of Europe, with their rich harvests, fine clothes and 'civilised' airs possibly looked upon the darker-skinned natives of some faraway land as curiosities at best and inferior savages at worst. This was wrong, but how can we judge this mentality with only our 21st Century savvy and moralities?

None of this, of course, excuses the barbarous acts carried out in the name of Great Britain, but it goes some way to explaining why bad things happened. None of us today could possibly understand what it was actually like to have lived in those times. Some of us fret about indoctrination today, but many were raised in Britain then as God-fearing folk, conscious of class and prepared to do their duty for King (or Queen) and Country. That is how it was here and across much of Europe.

It is oh-so easy for us to take the moral high ground and say that, had we been born in those times, we would have acted any differently. We'd like to think so, wouldn't we? But we are all products of this world, not theirs.

As I said, we did a lot of bad things.

I do think, however, that we have to offer a little something in balance: This country (together with many of our European neighbours or American cousins) also saved and enriched innumerable lives.

How? We developed medicines that even today continue to spare lives the world over. We have invented means of transportation that have enabled people to travel great distances. We have introduced devices enabling people to communicate with each other from different corners of the globe. We have introduced clean water and power to remote places, improving the health and day-to-day existence of millions. We have provided the means for people to protect themselves from invaders and ne'er do wells, as well as provided sanctuary and safe harbour to the persecuted. We have provided a model for democratic government. We have taken education and enlightenment across the globe.

No, none of that atones for the bad stuff. You can't trade off like that. But I don't believe it is right to just condemn our country for the bad without also recognising the enormous good that we (and our neighbours) have also done. It is far easier to count the deaths than it is to count the lives saved, but I wouldn't mind betting that, as balance sheets go, we're just about in credit.

 

Are you mad i will never leave here all together i just have a bolt hole that i hope to use once a month ... I had that 10 years ago and it sorted out my work/life balance so i am doing it again. Mrs DT has a family bolt hole in Dorset which is great in fact i am off there this weekend ... its close to Corfe Castle. I love this country for its countryside and will be in Salisbury Sunday fishing. I have to flirt between the two as work for both of us is here

If i could get back the England I grew up in East Sussex then i would but to buy a house there in my old area now is millions ... I am far more upset in the way of life and how we got here and where we are going. By the way the French are just as bad but there are larger pockets to escape to simply because its a larger country. Of course i love the French culture but i am a old punk rocker and what i see everywhere in the UK is not what it should of turned out like IMO ... plus i doubt if it can be reversed. The difference i have found is that the French have held onto their culture a lot better than we have held onto ours IMO ... I would never live in Northern France if you paid me

 

Not sure I buy that. People will turn out to vote when they want a change or when there are stark differences between the political parties. UK general election turnout has actually risen in the last two elections - admittedly from a very low base in 2001 when there was general satisfaction with Blair. I would expect another rise in 2015 when there is likely to be a desire to avoid another coalition, and with Miliband offering a more left-wing alternative.

It will be interesting to see the turnout for the New York mayoral election, where there is a decidedly left-wing Democrat candidate.