OT - Über's Open Debate Thread

The Nazis had by far better uniforms IMO ... What they represent is the sticking point and has shaped generations

For me a interactive face or a person in front or with me is all I need to make an assessment ... I don't think any of us should stereotype IMO

I don't know any Nazis or stereotypical groups we batch as Evils . **** can come from any mouth at anytime ... Dealing with that is the key skill IMO

In the last five years or so I have had circumstances which ended in fusty cuffs from Mexico to France from Gay diva men ramming their sexuality opinions to a simple verbal attack on Mrs DT

Differences happen and each person is his own army

Would I invade or attack Never apart from maybe a joint effort on a Corporation but how do fight them?

but battle lines are drawn and I am sincerely proud to act if required and if it righteous to basic human beliefs

I am a Anglo Saxon

 

Tacitus is an extremely interesting author, and although his accounts were 'factual' in the sense that he reported on real events, it's a little harder to call his writings truthful. His writings were all heavily laden with moral and political bias - the Agricola, for instance, was written to celebrate the achievements of his father-in-law whilst criticizing the luxuriousness of the Romans by contrasting them with the barbaric yet noble Britons.

These ancient texts can't be read as dispassionate accounts of the past; there more a distorted mirror of their author's own prejudices.

 

Agreed, but not ALL of them.
Tacitus has a reputation for having written reliable accounts of the past because much of what he has written has been physically proved to be true. He also nearly always admitted in his writing when he was using hearsay. The example I gave included no such admission.

Look, I am in no way arguing about the existence of a "Son of a God" here. I don't believe in that. I do however believe that Jesus Christ was a real person, based on the evidence that I have read.

 

So basically history is written by the victors then...make you wonder why idiots bother reading history books at all really?

NO, this isnt a dig at you Husky, I honestly believe that..all the bull about the great English nation/army...the biggest bunch of mass murderers on the planet that got away with it....I'll stop there before some start crying !!

I'll await the reply bull..

PS...Ubber, what a great thread!

 

I'd have to disagree about the nature of ancient and medieval texts, they were always written from a certain perspective which affected their narrative, regardless of whether the 'facts' are verifiable or not. That's the very bedrock of historical analysis.

My point was only about texts in general. As for the 'son of God' thing, I'm entirely in agreement that Jesus was an historical figure.

 

That reminds me. Hows the Night Club down in Brighton going Odders?

 

.

 

It's a bit more complex than that.

 

Is it?
why?

 

Because, for one thing, historical sources are just read for 'facts' but for the information they reveal about their author, his/her audience and the general cultural context of the time.

Realising that history is written by the victor is just a very basic starting point.

Besides, surely your not suggesting that the 'English' murdered more people than, say, the Nazis, Stalin or Pol Pot? Even the *****l are probably responsible for more deaths than the British - which includes the Welsh, Scottish andd Irish.

 

You are kidding right?
Where did the "Empire" come from ?
What were the Crusades ?
Who colonised Australia, America..?
What happened to the Maoris ?
Why are Aborigionies drunks ?
How do we own Africa, the Falklands etc..?

You are F-ing joking if you think you can find a more horrible and heartless race than US English

I am proudly English like yourself, but our past really is something we should be ashamed of, not proud of...maybe lok into slavery as well. May open your eyes as to what the great English (predominantly) but also including British are...

Why do you think the rest of the planet has a deap seated hatred for us...? You are living in coockoo land if you cant see it.

as an example of history being written by the winners. Australia was discovered by the dutch 200 years before Cook.
captain James cook got here using 400 year old maps from the Portugeuse explorers. this is documented and fact. BUT, still it is taught that the English discovered Australia..and those brain washed believe it.
that just the most obvious example i can give but there are hundreds.
believe me when i say we are a terrible "bitsa" race that ruled by fear and terror. You may want to check your history before we but heads on this subject !

FYI, i greatly respect and enjoy your posts husky and have you as one of my top 5 posters. im not sure of you age but you are obviously well educated. i just hope that you can open your eyes to other explanations..as it appears you do in your other posts.

no needle mate, just making a point

 

Can I please introduce a new topic?

It cannot have escaped the notice of many of us that many people are getting fatter. Politicians and the media use the expression 'obesity crisis' and there are fears for the nation's health. You only have to walk through an average British town centre to see many people of a size considerably larger that you would have seen maybe 20 years ago or more. In my experience it seems that more and more younger girls in particular are substantially bigger than they were.

Many town centres are now providing 'shopmobility' scooters, inarguably a good thing, although the demand for them appears (to me) to be outstripping supply. In my nearest town, not only am I struck by how relatively young many of the users of such contraptions are, but I have also noted that there are only a few users that are not of a larger size. I accept that we cannot possibly know of the underlying conditions these each of these people have to endure, and there is a valid argument that perhaps there has always been such people and, in the past, they were more confined to their homes; these scooters now offering them greater independence. Like I said, inarguably a good thing. [It is interesting how many of the scooter users seem to be smokers too.]

I appreciate that I'm going to expose myself to possible accusations of snobbishness, but is obesity a class thing or, more specifically, closely associated with both education and wealth?

I noted in an earlier comment on this thread that the poorer people of (say) a hundred years ago were generally thin and malnourished waifs, whereas nowadays they seem to be fat. If you happen upon programmes such as Jeremy Kyle - now there's a topic all to itself - you would be struck by how consistently large the participants generally seem to be. Are these people a fair representation of a certain segment of our society?

Do you believe there is an obesity crisis and, if so, what can be done about it? Is it the fault of parents? Fewer sports being taught in schools and playing fields being sold off? Fast food companies preying on the poor? More kids spending hours in front of PCs and computer games at home when once they played football, built dens and were generally more active? A general lack of peer pressure these days ("I'm fat and not prepared to do anything about it, so I'm prepared to accept that you can be")?

I was one of those skinny kids. My family used to joke that I could eat and eat and eat and never put on weight. But that all changed when I got into my early twenties, started working and lunching in McDonalds, smoking, drinking, giving up playing rugby and football etc. Before I knew it I was 18.5 stones and had a 40" waistband at 38 years old. I had two small children and a third on its way and realised that I was running out of breath just climbing a modest flight of stairs. I resolved to do something about it, took up running (very, very slowly at first) and cut out all the crap from my diet, and lot nearly 5 stones in 6-8 months. I'm a little heavier than that these days, but generally use the waistband on my trousers as the regulator of my weight: if its getting a little tight, then hit the salad for a week. This isn't meant to be a 'look at how brilliant I am' statement. It was hard work and continues to be.

The point is that I really wanted it.

A slight digression...

A guy called Victor Vroom (yes, really) once wrote about his 'valence theory' (as in value) of motivation in which he suggested (in very simple terms) that the extent to which somebody is motivated to do something is the product of the value they put on a successful outcome and their expectation that they will succeed through their efforts. I put a high score on the value (to me) of successfully losing weight, gaining fitness and improving health, and a high score on my belief that the way in which I would go about this would be successful. I was therefore highly motivated to succeed.

How do we create an environment within which people can be better motivated to take better care of themselves?

A huge problem (no pun intended).

 

I recall reading recently that the British Empire was reputedly responsible for adopting policies leading to the starvation to death of nearly 30 million Indians during the 19th century. This is just one country.

Stalin was responsible for the deaths of around 20 million Russians during his dictatorship, a figure excluding a further 20 million Russian soldiers and civilians killed during WWII.

The estimates for Hitler and Pol Pot are c. 11 million and 1.7 million, respectively.

What you say is fair, Queens, I just find myself wishing that you'd find better language to say it.

 

My eyes are fully open. Who first discovered the landmass that is known as N/S America? The Spanish; and they wiped out thousands of indigenous people - mainly through disease - prior to the arrival of the English. The main slaving powers before the rise of the English were the Spanish, Portugese and Dutch. It was their interest in Africa that sparked off the whole trans-Atlantic slave trade; and it was Portugese and Dutch interest in India etc that eventually drew the British in.

The Crusades are a case in point. 'English' involvement, particularly in the First Crusade, was minimal. It was far more a Frankish affair. The main leaders, Godfrey of Bouillion, Raymond of Toulouse and so forth, were all from areas of France and Germany. And the Muslims used 'Farangi' to collectively describe the crusaders which speaks volumes of where the opposition thought their attackers came from.

Yes, we've done some dispicable things in recent times, particularly in our various colonies, but our leaders have never persecuted on the scale of other 20th century dictators. Perspective is good.

 

There can be no doubt that obesity is a real and pressing issue. It affects 'lower' social classes more but there are plenty of overweight people in all social classes. Its causes are very diverse - more sedentary lifestyles, poor 'education' in diet, the ease of buying relatively cheap processed food stuffed with sugar, salt and fat by food manufacturers. This is quite deliberate - we are physiologically programmed to stock up on fat whenever we can, to help us through 'lean times' (ie winter/famine in the old days). If the lean times never come, you get fat. The manufacturers know that our built in addiction to fat is hard to control, and they can sell more crap by feeding it.

The mobility scooters are of course disasters for those who actually have the use of their legs and some remaining lung function, giving them the excuse not to exert themselves and burn any calories at all. These people of course clog up the GP surgery and cost us all a lot of money, but do tend to die younger.

Sometimes people don't take care of themselves because they don't respect themselves or like their lives. Cases of bulimia and body dysmorphia for example are overwhelmingly middle class.

I myself am at top weight of 13.5 stone at the moment, compared to fighting weight in my late twenties of 12 stone. My downfall is wine, which is full of sugar, a glass or two a night adds up quickly. I'll wager that your abstention from alcohol has helped your weight loss, or at least keeping it off Uber, and good on you for that. I walk at least 2 miles usually more like 4 a day, stopped smoking about 6 or 7 years ago. But I'm also getting old, with crap knees, various aches and pains and very aware that you can't hold back time, and a balance of enjoying life (whatever that means for individuals) and looking after yourself needs to be struck to make it worthwhile. I have seen too many 'healthy' contemporaries, who run/cycle everyday, watch what they eat like hawks etc etc, fall ill to diseases to which they have a genetic disposition - some cancers, heart/cardiovascular disease etc - to believe that 'looking after yourself' is the panacea. Of course poor lifestyle increases risks, but moderation in all things is a pretty handy guideline, for me at least.

I sense that you have little time for people - addicts, the obese - who can't/won't/don't 'look after themselves'/'pull themselves together' Uber.

 

Excellent post.

Of course the British have done things in their history to be ashamed of, as have all nations, but particularly "Empires".
The Crusades are a prime example of the ignorance of people who believe that the "English" were the main culprits.
The British were also very instrumental in the abolition of slavery, which is something that the "Britain knockers" often conveniently over-look.

These things need to be put into context too. In the dark ages etc life meant very little and the same can be said of Roman times, where brutal, bloody loss of life was a thing of entertainment. One really can't get on one's high horse and say how the British murdered so many millions when, throughout history, life was considered to be so cheap. One cannot use our morals today and apply them to history.

 

Because their ancestors mated with Paddy and Sweaty colonizers

 

Out of curiosity Swordsie boy?, do you know any potato farmers (who's name escapes me).

 

That made me laugh Staines. I was just talking about Paddy drunks and you ask about potatoes!

Is he a Rangers fan?

 

He's a friend of a friend who reckons he knows a QPR from Swords. Is that you me old mucker ?