OT - Über's Open Debate Thread

The relevance of the subject matter is zero. Its just an unfortunate coincidence. I've called you Herr Uber many times before!

https://sites.google.com/site/uberhooper/

Ah! I see what you did there. Very "outside the box" if I do say so myself, Uber lad!

 

It's a bit like Christmas starting early October. The BBC in particular obviously start handing out the poppies to presenters/guests at least a month in advance. I try to wait for November. 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month does actually have a historical relevance.

I'd be delighted to see any evidence for the existence of J Christ. The Romans, the only reliable record takers of the time, didn't see fit to mention him. Anyway whether such a person existed is irrelevant as there were many shamen wandering around the place claiming to be something they weren't in those days. Pretty sure none of them had a blood relationship with a deity.

 

Ah, that's it. I knew I wasn't imagining it.

See Uber, I wasn't wrong was I?

 

Call me Old Mister Picky if you wish, but what you actually said was this:

"Is it just me or does the poppy thing come around more than once a year? I could swear I see people on TV donning them more often than that."

As Stan has correctly stated, Auntie Beeb (for one) has taken to kicking the whole thing off earlier and earlier. That's not 'more than once', it's just earlier.

 

I love it when we get deep in our debates.

 

So would I, Stan, So would I. As I said in post #496, I believe that he existed, not that I know this to be true. Am I correct in thinking that many of the books of the New Testament were not first set down on manuscript until several hundred years after Christ would have been around? That does not, of course, mean that there is no truth in the accounts of the man and his life, and that these stories were not passed down from generation to generation before the first ancient was able to type them up into his word processor.

I suppose I leave myself in a bit of a trap with the conspiracy theorists, saying that I believe that Jesus existed but have no faith in the modern potential fabrications. But, in my defence, believing that there was a Jesus and believing that he was the Son of God and performed miracles of the nature described in the bible can be two separate things.

 

Me too. But I couldn't let Travis off the hook, he would never have forgiven me.

 

Ah but I wasn't wrong really....

wasn't right either

 

While I must admit that the potential world wide wine shortage is vexing me more at the moment, can I ask the resident brains trust their opinions of this...

Durham PCC Ron Hogg backs drug consumption rooms

Drug addicts should have access to "consumption rooms" where they could inject prescribed heroin legally, a police and crime commissioner believes.

Durham PCC Ron Hogg said introducing the facilities, often referred to as "shooting galleries", would help take drugs off the streets and reduce crime.

Home Office minister Norman Baker said the government was examining drugs strategies in other countries.

Related pilot projects have taken place in Brighton, Darlington and London.

'Reduce crime'

Mr Hogg's comments come after Durham Police's Chief Constable Mike Barton called for class A drugs to be decriminalised in an article for The Observer last month.

Mr Hogg, a Labour PCC and former senior police officer, said: "The successes of trials around the world, and within Darlington, have led both myself and the Chief Constable Mike Barton to believe that using drug consumption rooms to treat heroin addiction should be explored further, certainly county-wide.

"Results published in the Lancet showed that prescribing pharmaceutical heroin in this way can reduce the use of street drugs and associated levels of crime.

"This doesn't mean we're going soft on drugs in any way. We are continuing to address drug dealing and organised crime groups and are not condoning drug use.

"What we are saying is that we have a group of people here who committing large numbers of crimes to feed their habits and those illegal drugs cause massive health problems.

"There was no criminality around the trial that was held in Darlington and indeed the community became very supportive as they understood more and more about what was happening

"Of course there are obvious dangers in a project like this, but if it is run properly we can get the right outcome."

'Expensive to provide'

Public Health England (PHE), an agency of the Department of Health which works to improve people's health, said consumption rooms might not be the best way to tackle illegal drug use.

In a statement, it said: "These facilities would be expensive to provide and may not be the most cost-effective way of achieving outcomes for service users."

Teesside-based charity Bridges, which works with families of drug users, also questioned the benefits of Mr Hogg's proposal.

Tina Williams, project manager of the Stockton charity, said: "The problem is that use of heroin is already reducing. Heroin is not the main problem now. It's the use of smart drugs and skunk cannabis by kids that is the massive problem now.

"So what are we going to do with that? Are we going to legalise that and have rooms for that? I don't think so."

A trial by King's College London involving diamorphine and methadone took place from 2005 to 2011.

In April, the Independent Drugs Commission for Brighton and Hove recommended consumption rooms be introduced in the city, and councillors are due to consider the proposal next year.

A consumption room project studied by the UK government in Copenhagen, Denmark, was deemed a success by Danish police, but Mr Hogg insisted any new pilot in County Durham would not allow addicts to use their own drugs.

"In contrast to Denmark we want the health service to provide addicts with safe heroin, with consistent purities and safe additives," he said.

"We believe this will help reduce disease and death."

Mr Baker, Liberal Democrat minister for crime prevention, said government research into the drug strategies of other countries would be completed shortly.

He said: "We need to help individuals who have become dependent on drugs, recognising this is a health issue while at the same time ensuring law enforcement protects society by tackling the organised crime that is associated with the drugs trade."

 

Depends what you want to achieve Roller - reduce crime or reduce addiction. I'll go for the former every time, and if this works, all power to them.

Very good documentary on Pink Floyd just started on BBC 4 by the way. Amazingly, I have quite a lot of time for them, early 70s stuff at least, and Gilmour is a guitar god, never too many notes.

 

The fellow in the uniform in Asda, was it a comedy Freddie Starr fancy dress or an actual proper uniform? One would just be a high level of berkishness, and the other something altogether more sinister.

 

I didn't mention anything about him being the Son of any God Stan. I don't believe he was, but there is a fair bit of evidence to suggest that he existed. In my opinion, he was a very successful magician and manipulator. I'm sure the biblical stories are made up.

This may have eluded your internet search:

Tacitus was the Roman equivalent of The History Channel. Over a stupefying number of books, his Annals describe life under Tiberius, Nero and other lunatics, while also dealing with day-to-day existence in Rome. Significantly, that includes the period surrounding the Great Fire, the important bit goes:“Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus.”That’s the first reliable account of the crucifixion in history. Although he doesn’t cite his source, Tacitus had access to an awful lot of official documents and almost always noted when he was using hearsay. Since everyone but the most-insane of scholars accept this passage as genuine, it establishes the crucifixion as a historical event—one widely known even by A.D. 64. Furthermore, recently physical evidence was found proving the existence and presence of Pilate just where the Gospels say he was.

 

Giving junkies heroin so they don't have to commit crimes to buy it is surely the thin end of the wedge. Now if the want to extend that scheme to free beer in pubs I'd be happier.

I've been looking forward to the Pink Floydfest all week but very surprised you like them Stan. Is this exactly what you punks were rebelling against? Early 70's though, are we talking pre Dark Side?I've been listening to a magnificent versions of Careful with that Axe, Eugene and Saucerful of Secret all week, backed up by When You're In and One of These Days.

 

Floyd's Wish You Were Here is on BBC 4 at the moment, the story of how that album was made, some great stuff on it. Such a shame about Syd Barrett.

Couldn't understand how they didn't include 'Careful with that Axe' on their greatest hits compilation, it was always the highlight of their shows in the late 60s and pre 'Dark Side' days...

 

Think I've seen this before. Didn't Syd turn up at the studio when they were recording 'Shine On You Crazy Diamond'?

 

When they were doing the final mix. Quite spooky when you think of it, seven years since they'd seen him...

 

They have just covered that mate.

However I fear we are sidetracking this excellent thread.

 

Stan asks a perfectly reasonable question about what the primary objective of such an initiative is. But I get the sense that the people that drum up this stuff are less focussed on reducing crime or addiction (both worthy aims in my opinion) and more towards creating a safe environment for the purveyors of this squalid activity.

If you set aside the arguments about legalisation, just think about what these users are actually doing and what it is costing not only them, but the people they purport to care about. There are obvious attractions such as (potentially) reducing crime and removing this revolting practice from (perhaps) squats, alleyways, beaches and bus shelters so the rest of us don't have to step over dirty needles and other remnants of this activity. But I'm sure users will also be delighted to be provided with a warm, dry and safe environment, probably with some vending machines, comfy chairs, sofas and WC facilities. Presumably there'll also be some sort of supervision and emergency response to ensure the poor little darlings get the best and fastest medical attention should anything go wrong?

Rather than directing funds to well-intentioned projects such as this, I'd rather see them put towards addressing issues such as the differing 'Post Code Lottery' standards of healthcare from region to region, or an end to the second-class treatment of the elderly within the NHS.

It's probably an issue that gets a response at an emotional or moral level; I'd rather see my taxes directed at properly fighting the supply and use of illegal drugs than the creation of pretty little rooms for selfish people to get high.

 

and they understand that they are for entertainment purposes only.

 

He only insulted the Rebs, not us Yankees.