OT - Über's Open Debate Thread

I think he said he wants to castrate me

 

Jeez, you'll be calling football soccer next!...

 

Many thanks but this site without Brix is not the same.

Arrivederci e figli maschi as the saying goes.

 

I've had sexual encounters that lasted longer! All the best mate, thanks for dropping by.

 

Not the same without Imaz either
Brixton has gone I think we owe it to him to continue his great work IMO

 

Not the same without Imaz either
Brixton has gone I think we owe it to him to continue his great work IMO

 

We are all a part of what I see is the great work of Brixton I hope Imaz who I have a great respect for sticks around on here

Of course things aren't the same but I feel we owe it to his memory to continue talking bollocks

 

Ci vediamo, Professore

 

That's very well put Oddball

Genuinely

 

How very strange!

 

Imaz,
Think DT has got it right here.
Sadly, the passing of those who mean much happens more regularly than we care to think about but we can't close up shop and retreat.

Although I didn't have the pleasure of knowing Brixton face to face, I sure he would be doing everything he could to persuade you to stay and continue the debate.
That is why he joined the forum in the first place ................ not to mention that the rest of us value your contribution.
Cheers,
Aussie

 

Apologies for coming late to this fascinating debate but a tad busy at present.

1) Is anybody actually surprised and outraged by this, or have we all always assumed that everybody is spying on everybody anyway, always have and always will?

Not surprised or outraged since even a superficial reading of the press (from The Guardian to The Mail) will lead you to the conclusion that this has gone on since there was the ability to do so.

2) Does anybody ever worry about whether the CIA, MI5, KGB or MFI have a file on them, and what aspects of our life has been captured for record?

No. I try to live my life, and certainly my professional life, along the lines of, 'would I be happy for this to be on the front page of the Daily Mail?'. If people thought more about what they wrote or said and precisely how they communicated, it might lead to some less grief in the world generally (and a few less people losing their jobs!). This is not to say that we should be shackled and not say things that need to be said, take a stand over contentious issues etc. As an example of the Daily Mail test, if Jo Moore had written, 'Given today's appalling news of the attacks on the World Trade Centers, I wonder whether it might be an opportune time to release those figures we have been sitting on for a while? There is no good time to deal with such matters but now seems as good a time as any', instead of 'today's a good day to bury bad news', she might still have been in post. It would certainly have given her more of a fighting chance because her words would have acknowledged the appalling events of the day and not mentioned 'good' since there was nothing 'good' about that day.

3) Do any of you have concerns about who's monitoring your internet habits and for what purpose?

Absolutely. At one level, I don't really care because I have nothing to hide. However that presupposes that the people looking in have pure motives and will always act in my best interest. I would not bet too heavily on that. I feel certain it must be possible to set some one up electronically with dodgy photos on a hard drive or make it appear that one's mobile has been used to call sex lines etc etc.


4) Do we truly live in a free society, or have we paid too high a price now for this 'freedom'?

Freedom? Hmm. I have come to believe that some of the most free people ij the world are those who are not always banging on about their rights but have realised that helping other and society in general leads to a higher freedom.

At a more crude level, I don't think we are free as all that. When I was a kid, we used to chuckle at the poor Russians who were enslaved in this system called Communism. We felt sorry for them with their food shortages (despite everyone in the queue being obese!). As an adult I have come to believe that the only difference between them and us is that the 'toys' we are given to play with are nicer than theirs were so we keep quiet for longer. One of the reasons for the civil unrest 2 years ago was that there are sub sections of our society who are fed up with the crap toys they are playing with and want some of those the other kids have.

5) Does anyone take the view that if we've done nothing wrong then we've nothing to fear, or, like me, do you believe that in a free society you should be allowed to have something to hide, i.e. there's nothing wrong with having secrets, just so long as they're innocent and harmless ones?

Of course we should be allowed secrets. George Orwell created a world where there were no secrets. Would anyone like to live in Orwell's 1984? I doubt it.

For those who have not seen Will Smith and Gene Hackman in 'Enemy of the State', well worth a watch in the context of this thread. Mel Gibson and Julia Roberts in 'Conspiracy Theory' too. The Conspiracy Theory sites are many and even if only 1% of what those guys believe is true then that is scary enough!

Good thread.

 

Thanks, Stroller. I watched the programme at your recommendation and agree with what you have said here.

[As with the other R-word debate that we have wisely chosen to avoid on this thread, we will have to tread carefully on this subject when there are some that will visit this who may be more quickly offended for no reason other than this is being debated.]

The thing that struck me most was the simple fact that hatred and prejudice can be so easily tackled just by engagement and dialogue. Mo Ansar reaching out to Tommy Robinson on that BBC Sunday programme and Robinson's surprising (at the time) acceptance of Ansar's offer to come visit immediately started to remove barriers and lead to greater understanding. That Ansar then bravely spoke in front of an EDL audience - and that they largely engaged in that session too - also contributed to the progress shown in the programme. Of course, there are always some whose minds are so closed that they will not engage, and we saw some of these here.

The engagement factor is so important. But it is not something that should be solely levelled at (say) EDL audiences; this responsibility lies with all sides. The UK has miserably failed to properly manage immigration, as well as the way in which it has handled multiculturalism over the past 40 years or so. I don't believe that anybody can honestly say that the introduction of new cultures, customs and faces doesn't enhance and enrich our country. It has always been thus. But what has happened now is a failure to properly integrate new immigrants, such that in some areas we have a sort of 'country within a country' setup. Theodore Dalrymple, in one of his many interesting essays, shows how the onus to integrate has to sit more with the immigrant than with the UK, particularly because there have been immigrants from so many different countries and regions, the British people themselves couldn't possibly be expected to adapt to accommodate so many new and mysterious people from so many new and mysterious lands. The myriad languages for one! In adopting what seems to have been an almost laissez-faire approach to immigration, successive governments have contributed significantly to the problem we now have, when they should have created an environment within which immigrants could be welcomed but encouraged to integrate more quickly.

I worked with a Muslim chap until quite recently (nice lad) whose parents lived just outside Manchester. I learned that his grandmother, although resident in this country for over 40 years, could hardly speak a word of English. This was quite common, he told me, in Asian women his grandmother's age in that area. We discussed earlier how some (all?) religions have been man-made and specifically made by man to control woman. The lad gave the impression of a whole community in which all the men could speak English and ventured out to work every day, but many of the women, particularly the older generation, had a poor grasp of the language and, frankly, had no need to leave the 'safety' of their own neighbourhood and therefore no need to speak any language but Urdu. Their culture (and their religion?) largely seemed to encourage women to stay put in the home, and not having the language to communicate outside of the bubble, one might argue that the men could generally keep them right where they wanted them.

This is just an example from my personal encounters, and of course there are many successful (but younger) Asian women that are completely integrated into 'our world'. If the example above is considered 'extreme' then it is deliberately so; the racialist attitude of organisations such as the EDL is also extreme. I'm not excusing the EDL and their loathsome sort for one moment, but I can understand how ignorance on one side can respond in this way to ignorance from the other. I can see how extremists can emerge from one side in response to something extreme and alien from the other. It is back to engagement: we must get to know each other, break down the barriers and improve our understanding. For immigrant communities (not just Asian, but Eastern European and elsewhere) to be allowed to develop within bubbles in the UK has proved a disaster, not only because whole generations have been allowed to grow unaffected by the general UK culture, but also because these 'mysterious' communities have served to feed the hatred of the ignorant right. Extremists on both sides have ever since responded to each other in kind.

I will probably get into trouble with somebody for this, but I believe that nothing that I've written is either untrue or racialist. Whilst there are always, always, always examples of where different communities have reached out to one another and have learned to co-exist in harmony, there are also examples of where this is not so. The issues are much deeper and broader than I have tried to articulate here - they always are - health, education, poverty, employment, religion, race, individuals etc. etc. etc. all come to bear both positively and negatively in every circumstance.

 

Excellent analysis Uber. I very much agree that engagement is the key and thought that the efforts made by Ansar and Robinson in this regard were admirable. That Robinson and Nawaz could move from polar positions to work together in an organisation that speaks out against extremism of all kinds was quite inspirational. Early days, but I hope this collaboration lasts.

 

A very well thought through post Uber. I have not yet seen the programme you refer to Stroller, but have heard both the participants talk.

I think the key word in all of this is ignorance. I'll think further before contributing more, and try and find time to see the programme. Also want to reflect a bit on the significant proportion of my life I have spent living abroad as a part of an ethnic/cultural (albeit privileged) minority, see if that helps my thinking.

 

I still owe you some thoughts on Europe too, Stan. I'm still trying to collect them!

I spent my very early formative years in West Africa - Liberia to be precise - and have many fond memories of that time. But, as you have recognised with your own circumstances, my family lived very much a privileged minority life, not unlike I would imagine some Kenyan or Rhodesian colonists would have led. I think that acknowledging the good fortune of these particular circumstances is helpful when determining what it is that you actually feel or believe.

 

Your last point is very valid as I have worked on the internet since it's birth ... today I make responsive emails that record you 1st 2nd and 103rd touches on say a smart phone ... Its recorded believe me!. Simple example... Wonga know exactly where the mouse goes to on the web sliders and the hesitation from load from that they build a factor into your credit rating chances on top of course as a full link up to all the credit databases ... anyone who thinks we live on good will nowadays needs to wake up

Great exercise about people who try and leave the internet and all things digital ... a percentage end up very depressed and have no life ... 7 years touch screens on an iphone was thought to be too visionary but they were all ready built

The future? ... well Graphene will change everyones life on here in the next 7 years IMO

Like you say we have this tech too scary to comprehend what tools the power based have

99% of news or any influence broadcasted is spin

All this can be simplified by just one song: Rise by Public Image IMO: Save your soul and sing this everyday and you won't go far wrong

[video=youtube;yb7Li2Vs24Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yb7Li2Vs24Y[/video]

 

for people who don't get it:

[video=youtube;BCgbRS2LrHY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCgbRS2LrHY[/video]

 

Wise words from Johnny and DT. Trouble is I've given in to tech, and 7 years is too long to wait for graphene gadgets. It's just too sexy!

 

I'll be honest with you, Dave. I like the Sex Pistols, but I was never much of a fan of PiL. I am no stranger to listening and liking challenging music with incoherent rhythm and more incoherent lyrics, as my record collection (ooh, that ages us) would testify to, but found PiL to be impenetrable; not unlike some of your contributions to this board (so I can see why you're a fan).

I do rather like the National Treasure status these days bestowed upon Lydon, though; not because he necessarily speaks for anyone in particular or anything like that, but rather because he's become a parody of himself over time (as we all do) and remains quintessentially British in his eccentricities. I don't believe any other country could create creatures like Lydon.