OT - Über's Open Debate Thread

Stroller - I'm going to leave this discussion, simply because I am happily not qualified to get into a debate about the technicalities of what is and isn't rape/sexual assault. If they can't divide the stats between reported by victimm and reported by others, thats pathetic.

Uber - whats this 'Force' problem? I've just looked it up - only the Met, Northern Ireland and Scotland have 'Service' in their title. All the rest are either just 'Police' e.g. Warwickshire Police or Constabulary. No 'Forces' I'll grant you, but weren't they all Constabularies in the olden days?

 

The Crime Survey for England and Wales (previously called the British Crime Survey)[1] is a systematic victim study, currently carried out by BMRB Limited on behalf of the Home Office. The survey seeks to measure the amount of crime in England and Wales by asking around 50,000 people aged 16 and over (as of January 2009), living in private households, about the crimes they have experienced in the last year. From January 2009, 4,000 interviews were also conducted each year with children 10–15 years old, although the resulting statistics remain experimental.[2] The survey is comparable to the National Crime Victimization Survey conducted in the United States.

The Home Office asserts that the Crime Survey for England and Wales can provide a better reflection of the true level of crime than police statistics since it includes crimes that have not been reported to, or recorded by, the police. The Home Office also claims that it measures crime more accurately than Police statistics since it captures crimes that people may not bother to report because they think the crime was too trivial or the police couldn't do much about it. It also provides a better measure of trends over time since it has adopted a consistent methodology and is unaffected by changes in reporting or recording practices.[4]

If you were one of the 50,000 interviewed, Uber, you could recount your experience of vandalism and it would be recorded in the stats, irrespective of whether the police took any action, or even recorded the incident.

 

I got graped once ... there was a bunch of them

 

Stan, it was always known as the police force when were kids, regardless of whether 'force' was in any official titles. I love 'constabulary', which evokes memories of Dixon of Dock Green. My problem is that I get the sense that somebody, somewhere is making a deliberate and conscious effort to remodel the police into a 'service'. It all sounds horribly PC and namby pamby to me, but comes as no surprise as its consistent my perception of the rozzers becoming more like social workers.

I know we have National Service into the armed forces many years ago, but it was the individual that did the service. Perhaps one day we'll have recruitment posters into the Armed Services too?

 

Guess what's on the telly.......Zulu!!!

 

As this thread seems to be the receptacle for 'difficult' subjects, could I introduce a new topic? Did anyone see the BBC documentary last night about Tommy Robinson leaving the EDL and joining an anti-extremist group called Quilliam? Well worth watching on catch-up. Unexpectedly, Robinson came across to me as thoroughly reasonable man. His link-up with Maajid Nawaz, a former Islamic extremist, could turn out to be a very positive move.

 

A vision of Col in Union Jack boxer shorts made flashing into my mind

 

Thanks for this, Stroller. If the Home Office asserts, then I suppose it must be true. I am prepared to accept that a series of figures compiled annually on a consistent basis show a decreasing trend in crime, but remain sceptical that a survey of the experiences of around 50,000 is representative of a population in excess of 63 million (incl. Scotland). Statisticians, of course, will trot out their blurb about representative samples and the like, not entirely without merit, but I have to ask again: why is it that there's still a persistent perception (not just with me, but with a great number of people) that crime is not reducing?

Maybe its that the media is always full of crime stories, there's a sense of foreboding in some streets (particularly after dark), kids with nothing better to do hang around outside convenience stores and street corners, dropping litter, spouting obscenities and abuse? Maybe its because fewer kids are brought up today with strong male role models to guide them, and instead find their heroes in gangs? Maybe its because teachers (and some parents) are finding it harder and harder to control and properly discipline children; that the police either don't want to know or are powerless to bring to bear anything that remotely fits a reasonable persons definition of justice? Maybe many believe that you reap what you sow and an increasingly **** harvest is brought in each year?

I dunno, Stroller, but I'll be honest and say that I'm scared for the future. Like many, I've seen how increasingly powerless I am when I venture out to challenge young yobbos giving it large in the street. I had my young kids in hysterics with their heads full of pictures of Daddy getting his head kicked in outside at night, whilst some pissed 16-year old or other is telling me to **** off, waving a bottle in my face and daring me to whack him one. They know I can't touch them. They know the police 'service' will show up pretty quickly if a minor is assaulted and I'll be in that Black Maria faster than you can say 'miscarriage of justice'; certainly much faster than they are prepared to come when I've called them to deal with such matters themselves.

I've had kids assuming its OK to sit on the roof of my car, getting down when I've gone out and asked them politely, only to climb straight back on when I've gone back inside. I've then had the usual brave '**** off' and sniggers when I've gone out more aggressively. I've had policeman tell me on the blower that they can't spare anybody to come out, but, when I've suggested they reconsider else I give one of the young scallywags a thick ear, take on a grave tone and warn me that I must not do that or they'll have to arrest me.

My experiences are nothing compared to the misery many face day after day and night after night. For me, its just spoilt little middle class kids too full of Grand Theft Auto and their own spunk. For others there's the continued scourge of drug abuse, alcohol abuse, knives and other weapons to face.

I seriously doubt the British Crime Survey captures much of this, because the general sense of lawlessness ain't a crime in itself, is it?

 

Yeah, I'm watching the +1 version.

Fowzands of 'em.

They would have won if they'd kept their eyes closed...

 

Thanks Stroller, I'll seek it out.

 

...I've just cum.

 

You paint a dark picture, Uber.

I guess the question is, if you were surveyed by the BCS, would you report the car incident to them as a crime?

Perhaps the difference nowadays is the lack of 'respect' shown by elements of the younger generation towards their elders, generating a sense of fear.

 

The picture is dark, Stroller, and in my jaundiced view of the world it'll only get darker before the light!

Yep, I would report the vandalism of my car whilst on holiday, but doubt I'd say much about the anti-social yobbo behaviour as one loses a sense of time, frequency etc. I'd say I tend to go out and try and deal with perhaps one out of every five incidents of this nature. Like many people, I imagine, I find I lie there in bed getting angrier and angrier about the **** outside. Eventually it dawned on me - I admitted to being slow on stuff earlier - that this anger was actually at myself in my impotence for not having the courage to do something about it... so I now try to address this.

I don't want to give the opinion that I live in some sort of sink estate; I don't. It's an affluent, middle class area, with Mercs in the drives, 2.4 children and two holidays per annum. That this crap takes place here occasionally probably adds to my anger.

 

Can I suggest a new title for this thread as it has become so much more than its original name.... the OT Open Debate thread or something similiar? (no "mass debate" jokes please!)

Also maybe a sticky as it could run and run this one, it certainly beats the word assosciation thread!!

 

Good idea, Congleton, I was thinking along the same lines.

 

Proposed, seconded and thirded!

 

Doesn't need a sticky as it will stay near the top of the page as long as its interesting (and I don't like stickies).. And to be honest there are a fairly limited number of us contributing to it.

 

Your mate Flyer has moved on...