OT - Über's Open Debate Thread

Yep, you've worked it out. Go ahead, I'd like the whole board to adopt it.

 

Och I was only joking for God's sake

 

I disagree with this.
I believe the film makers actually depicted the Zulus for what they were..........brave, clever, astute, resourceful warriors who were fighting gor their homeland. The white African in the film has lots of dialogue where he is praising them.

Incidentally..........the Zulus also sacrificed hundreds of their warriors just to count the number of British guns!!

 

I would like to point out that although I have spent an inordinate amount of time reading and posting on this excellent thread this weekend, I have achieved many other things (the slow cooked shoulder of lamb is about to come out of the oven to rest before it is devoured, for one) and the main reason I have been around is that I am stuck on level 200 of Candy Crush, and needed to take a break from it.

 

You weren't though, we're you? You have got a bit of previous in this respect, haven't you; toss in a grenade and then pass it off as banter?

 

This may be of interest...............particularly No3!

http://www.cracked.com/article_20466_5-conspiracy-theories-that-are-shockingly-easy-to-debunk.html

 

I. on the other hand, have had a particularly lazy Sunday, aside from a little paper-work.

 

I think we need to hear that story from the lamb's perspective. Candy Crush? And there was Travis expecting better from me! Still, I broke off to take kids to see " Turbo" this afternoon. I'm not sure what liberties were taken by the makers of that one.

 

I expect it was a little snailist wasn't it?

 

It was indeed! The makers certainly 'shelled' out on the voice stars, though.

 

I'm sure, what with Slimey L Jackson and all! (I'll get my coat)

 

Havn't had time to read all this fascinating thread but on the subject of the film 'Zulu', the ending where the brave warriors salute their enemy and leave, as they have put up such a gallant fight is in fact utter bollox.
The truth is that they knew a relief coloumn was well on it's way so they decided to f*** off sharpish before they arrived.
Oh well, i guess the truth would of ruined a good ending huh.

 

Taxi for Col!

 

Very true. I was most upset when I learned that. Brilliant ending, but unfortunately completely made up. One would imagine that, the Zulus being such ferocious warriors, they would have felt some respect for the bravery shown by the British.

 

If they had honoured the British as fellow warriors I suspect they'd have been back sharpish had they then seen the British executing the Zulu survivors on the battlefield. I fear the romantic notion of honour amongst gladiators is largely bunkum in the theatre of war. I wonder how much of the reputed chivalry of Von Richtofen is true....?

 

Well, the thread has moved on quite a bit, but I thought I would still respond to the above.

Uber, I am sorry that you feel that you have been adversely affected by cannabis. This very fact gives you a better insight than myself on the subject.

I had performed a quick search for PH's views on the issue and come up with an article (from the Mail On Sunday, I think) which consisted of a list of crimes committed by individuals that were 'high on cocaine' at the time, which he used to justify his anti-legalisation stance. I found this highly unsatisfactory, hence my comments. Perhaps he has made more cogent arguments elsewhere.

I am not currently a cannabis user, and my past experiences with it were of a 'social' nature only. I am, however, in favour of legalisation. In fact, I would favour legalisation of all drugs on the basis that the wider criminality surrounding production and supply would hopefully be removed. The 'war on drugs' cannot be won - alcohol prohibition in the US is a good lesson. Of course, strict controls over licensing and the prevention of sales to minors would be required, as would public education as to the inherent dangers, but I don't subscribe to the view that usage would necessarily increase. I would not be tempted to indulge in substances that were previously proscribed - nor would anyone I know so far as I am aware. My drug of choice is alcohol.

Having admitted that I can't claim to disagree with Peter Hitchens on every subject, I should explain that I made my mind on him some time ago, based on having seen him on TV on numerous occasions and read many of his articles. I guess the makes me appear blinkered on the subject, and maybe that is true, but I just can't be bothered to seek out the views of someone with whom I am confident I will disagree. It would be like reading the Daily Mail every day in the hope that they might one day publish something that wasn't right-wing rabble rousing.

By contrast, I find Christopher Hitchens' views on religion inspirational and to sum up everything I would want to say on the subject.

 

Unfortunately, I'm sure you're right Uber. However, this account from one of the British soldiers does perhaps put these killings into some perspective and backs up your musings on what really happens in the theatre of war. (In no way excuses it of course)

wrote one trooper, William James Clarke. "Seeing the manner in which our wounded had been mutilated (by the Zulus) after being dragged from the hospital we were very bitter and did not spare wounded Zulus."

 

Yes Col, the Zulus were vicious with the wounded and mutilated the dead and dieing as a matter of course.

On a similar note, i remember my Gramps telling me about when they came across a load of Japanese soldiers bathing in a pool in a jungle clearing in Burma during the war and how they shot them all in cold blood.
When i questioned him on how he could commit what was really cold bloodied murder he said that if i would of found my friends bodies, after being captured by the Japanese, tortured in the most horrible way, then i could very well of done the same thing.

'C'est la guerre'

 

Good man, Stroller. A very reasonable and considered response, not dissimilar to that of Stan's earlier in this thread. To that end, I refer you to my response to him. As you might expect, I don't have the solution to the drug problem, but fear legalisation won't be it. Hitchens P raised doubts that there has been a war on drugs fought seriously for the past 40-odd years. I haven't read his book but intend to at some point in the future.

To be honest, I'm not wholly familiar with Hitchens C's views on much other than religion and the Iraq war, so probably should familiarise at some point also. Like I've said previously, I tend to side (mainly) with Christopher when it comes to religion and Peter when it comes to the Iraq war.

Peter Hitchens has written a good piece today on a certain Ian McLoughlin, who appears to have been convicted for manslaughter in 1984 (when this 'manslaughter' involved "smashing [the victims] skull seven times with a hammer, cramming his body upside down into a cupboard and ransacking the house for money". He was released after serving 5 of an original 10 year sentence, only to murder again 3 years later. He was then let out on day release, only to murder again, this time a man coming to the aid of somebody he was already attacking.

Hitchens refers to those who oppose capital punishment by citing fear of erroneously executing an innocent person, and basically asks whether this is what has effectively happened twice here simply because the death penalty was not an option for McLoughlin (and life has not meant life).

I personally find nothing to disagree with in this piece, but wonder what your position might be?

 

Good find, Col. And thanks for your comments too, Staines.

I read somewhere that the Japanese COs often told their soldiers that the allies would not take prisoners. [In fact this was often the case in jungle warfare, where there was no logistics for dealing with POWs] It was this belief that ensured the Imperial Army fought fanatically to the death, rather than surrendering when the battle was lost. It became a self-fulfilling prophesy, as the allies would then seek to completely exterminate the Japanese believing they'd never surrender anyway, providing the Japanese themselves with the evidence that what their COs said was true.