OT - Über's Open Debate Thread

I highly recommend "Five Go Mad At The G7" too, Stan. I'll make a note of Wheen's book; I only really know him from the News Quiz.

Cripes! Please don't get the impression that I like to get my nose into management books! I admit I enjoy the odd human psychology manual, "Flipnosis" being quite an interesting read.

For the time being, however, I'm sticking to Harry Flashman. How he's going to escape the evil clutches of the Khalsa and make it back to warn Broadfoot is beyond me...

 

Well, we might as well give up mate, these blokes are obviously so immensely clever to plan this and every eventuality surrounding it, that they may not actually be human. Thank god for the brave internet warriors in their little rooms who can see through it all! Soon you'll discover that the Matrix is not fiction.....

So are you accusing the US military of assassinating Kennedy. Just that quite recently I'm sure you said it was the Dallas Police Department. For completeness let's just list other potential culprits - KGB, Communist Cuba, right wing Cuban exiles, Mafia, J Edgar Hoover and probably many others....

Breathtaking ignorance, if you simplify everything to a slogan it says more about you than the truth. I'll give you that some Republicans are pretty scary though. Good job we've got 8 years of a Democratic presidency, and their latest shenanigans regarding the budget are likely to cost Republicans a lot of seats in Congress. That would be because Americans don't just think about abortion when they vote.

Let me tell you something, in most cases the most simple, straightforward explanation for something is usually the truth. In this case, its that a bunch of fanatical Islamic fundamentalists flew some planes into buildings in the US. Any other explanation would require a cover up operation involving thousands of people keeping their mouths shut for decades.

A 30 second internet search confirms that Saudi nationals, including members of the Bin Laden family, left the US on 13 September, after air space had been reopened. Of course Osama had been exiled/ostracised from this very wealthy Saudi family for many, many years before 9/11. They continue to be very wealthy and influential family with many business interests, including cleaning services. It's quite alarming to be sitting in a Jeddah hotel lobby seeing cleaning staff with 'Bin Laden' printed on the back of their overalls wandering past.

But anyway, if the US committed these atrocities on itself, and Osama Bin Laden is a complete red herring, of what relevance is this to your argument? Even if you suspend your theories for a couple of minutes, are you implying that members of the family of a criminal are guilty by association? We better build some bigger prisons then.

Saudia Arabia is of course a hideous regime, and it is to the shame of US, UK etc that they are our allies and we delight in selling arms to them. Of course the British invented this non country and put a tribal chief on its throne, who's family are still there.

 

Cleaning services? They could have a slogan:

Is your bin laden? Then let us empty it for you!

 

Bin and gone!...

 

Yes..

One couple in Detroit
One couple in New York
and One couple in new Jersey....!!
thier various kids, my cousins are scattered across the US

Did that work out how you expected then? Idiot !

Now. Re-think that stupid statement !

Edit- Sorry the one that i was named after passed away just over a year ago, so you cant include my uncle in Detroit.
Rest are still good as we've spoke over the last few weeks.

 

Not wishing to digress from this excellent thread which I am enjoying hugely, have you seen any of the 'Life in Pieces' short films starring Peter Cook? You can find all twelve of them on You Tube. Essentially it's Cook (one of my greatest heroes) as Sir Arthur Streeb-Greebling, reminiscing on his long and bizarre life in an Edwardian style study. This is what my little brother has in mind for Flashman, except with a few clips from old films cut in. No attempt to tell the whole books, just anecdotes from some of them. As he said, any attempt to do a whole book for TV or film would be ruinously expensive to do well, and "the core demographic's not great. Essentially 40, 45 year old plus Englishmen of a certain education, who really wish they had been born a gentleman in late Victorian England". Little bastards got me to a T.

 

Fair point COL.

But would you agree with him on this one? "Britain surrendered to the IRA". Total rubbish IMO.

(Skip to 03:38)

[video=youtube;1zmfcTKIdik]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zmfcTKIdik[/video]

 

Cheers boys, I'll look them up.

Another very funny account of organised religion is a book called "God: A user's guide" by Sean Moncrieff.

 

Thanks, Stan, I'm pretty sure that I've seen some of the Peter Cook stuff. He was a little hit & miss, in my opinion, although there's many that would disagree.


P.S. I now see you as a sort of Darwin/Wilberforce/Earl of Shaftesbury type. Or maybe Rowley Birkin QC?

 

What the hell is up with you?

I just wanted to make sure of it before replying but see now theres no point at all.

 

I don't want to get drawn into a debate on the troubles in Northern Ireland.

 

Stan has pretty much rubbished this statement. I would only add that for you to believe that all the passengers that were on or supposed to be on these planes were either in on the scam or were all murdered before they got on the planes is just ridiculous. This would mean every call to every relative was faked.....or the relatives were all in on it too or now they're all dead. They're not of course.
It just isn't feasible that they could pull this off.

I believe that an awful lot of these conspiracies are born out of a hatred for the USA.

 

Total rubbish? I really don't know, I'm afraid. I am not a native of Northern Ireland, so I can only form an opinion from the data available from countless sources and the argument put forward from various interested parties and observers. I have formed the opinion that the situation there remains extremely complex and challenging to explain in a five-minute soundbite. What observers such as Hitchens do well, however, is to present an exaggerated view on a subject in order to invite thought and debate. Many rail against such tactics, but I welcome it as a healthy alternative to everybody remaining 'on message' and saying everything's great, when clearly it ain't (this being a comment in general and not specifically a comment on NI).

 

Or perhaps this fella...

[video=youtube;rMoaq76zzfM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMoaq76zzfM[/video]

 

I'm struggling to come up with any of Hitchens P's 'truths' that I could accept. Could you help me, Uber? His argument that cannabis is a dangerous drug because he is able to cite a few instances of violent crimes committed by individuals who were 'high on cannabis' seems fatuous. I am not aware of any scientific evidence that suggests that cannabis turns people violent. These people were just violent scumbags that happened to have smoked cannabis. They might also have had cornflakes for breakfast.

 

You gonna tell me what my nickname means then Uber?

 

I think that's a great observation, Stan. I was telling a young colleague about Flashman (he was feigning polite interest whilst no doubt wondering who would get through on the X Factor this week) and suggested that that was possibly the last era of the great adventurer. Sure, there was adventure (if one could term it thus) in the campaigns of both world wars and such during the 20th century and beyond, but towards the end of the 19th century many of the last frontiers were coming down.

For GMF there were so many golden opportunities and historical events into which he could paint Harry Flashman that it would almost have been a capital offence not to take them. For people like us that fit that demographic and have an interest in history, the campaigns in GMF's books are so meticulously researched that, even though Flashy himself is a product of fiction, it is fair to say that the books are tantamount to getting a further education in history to supplement the entertainment of the story themselves. It was a stroke of genius to base these stories around a coward and a bounder (a Callard and a Bowser, as I call 'em) rather than some gallant and dashing hero, as it allowed GMF to get away with some licence, particularly when certain historical facts are disputed (as he recognises in the appendices of each Paper).

I have already found myself researching the characters in the books read to date in order to ascertain which are fictional and which were real. I was totally ignorant of the likes of Queen Ranavalona, James Brooke to name but two. Fascinating and immensely entertaining.

I wish your brother success in bringing Flashy back to life.

 

Which statement, this one?
http://news.sky.com/story/209876/bin-laden-family-evacuated-from-us

I never said that, all the passengers died on the flights in question, where are you getting the thought that I said they werent on the planes?

 

S'trewth! That's a big ask, Stroller. I suggest you visit his blog as there's myriad stuff in there on the subject, some I'm prepared to accept, some I remain sceptical of. In fairness, I'm not so sure he has made the claims that you state; I believe his argument is more around the impact cannabis has on certain people with a propensity to such acts.

[On the subject of cannabis, I can only speak from personal experience, which is that when I was an occasional user in my teens/early twenties I am certain that the drug had a lasting impact on me mentally. In particular, I believe it turned me from Mostly Extrovert to Mostly Introvert. You may think this bunkum, but that is my opinion of myself. It could be that this personality transition was also part of an adolescent moving into maturity, but I live in my head an awful lot and have thought about this long and hard for a good twenty years and remain unconvinced.]

 

Nope.