OT - Über's Open Debate Thread

Ubber !?

 

Col, well done you for taking the time to watch the programme through before responding. It is interesting that you make reference to religious belief, as I too find it odd that some people are willing to believe conspiracy theory hokum (sorry Dave) but dismiss the possibility of a deity. How can it be that a mind can be so open as to accept every JFK/Marilyn Monroe/Princess Diana/911 improbability, but not the improbabilities of a God? [There's seems to be a growing number of people believing in spiritualist mediums too, but not in God. Also odd, in my opinion]

 

I have genuinely had sleepless nights trying to get my head around all things religion and how did the universe begin etc!!

I am not for one minute saying that there isn't a religious God. I couldn't possibly say that as I can't prove it. All I can do is make a judgement call based on what I have seen and read.
Funnily enough, I would love the religious story to be true (trouble is, there can only be one true version presumably). Imagine that there was an all powerful God who sent his Son down to us to save us etc (if that is indeed the true version). Absolutely fascinating. Unfortunately I don't believe it myself.

 

I am prepared to say that there is no God - that is my considered opinion. However, I am unable to declare it as a fact, because I can't prove it. I guess you could call it my faith - as in a belief in something which can't be proved.

 

Well seing as we've done polotics and we're now heading into religion, then I may as well join in.
I, as you Col, believe that there is / was something that had a master plan. Call it what you will i.e. Aliens, god, etc The fact remains it must have all come from somewhere.

Now I watched a documentry on a certain religion once and it was the closest I have come to believing (as an adult) in god.
the basis behind it was that there is only 1 "god" or "being" but he/it appears to diffrent people in diffrent guises ie God / jesus/ Rama/ Bhudda and all dirrfrent religions are celebrating this being or entity as they have seen it. In the same way we on this board praise or slate diffrent players as we have seen them i guess.
the point made was although people worship diffrent gods, it really is just the 1 appearing diffrently.
Now, if you take away the stories in the bible, Koran and any other religious propoganda, this theory seems the most plausible to me. it explains a lot and why there are so many religions?
It explains there is/was 1 single force involved in creating our world universe etc
i found it quite intresting but this is going OT
by the way, that religion was Rastafarianism, just thought I'd save that until last....!!!

 

With you on that one, Col. I would imagine if God made himself/herself/itself known to the world now there would be enough religious zealots that would not accept him/her/it as such, particularly if he/she/it was critical of how they had conducted themselves during his/her/it's absence, as I would dearly love him/her/it to be.

Him/her/it, he/she/it.. ****, this PC stuff is exhausting.

Going back to an early mention of the Hitchens brothers, I read Christopher's "God Is Not Great" on holiday last year and found it fascinating, and certainly more convincing than Peter's "The Rage Against God".

The late Christopher presented pretty convincing arguments that religion is not only man-made, but is also made by man as distinct to woman. He gave examples within many of the world's 'great' religions of how customs and practices and laws have been designed to control women in particular. Circumcision of women, for example, was introduced to substantially decrease the pleasure the woman gets from sex, thereby reducing her urge to wander and increasing man's control over her. A truly barbaric practice too. But we digress...

 

I read "God is not great" too. Fascinating read.
Religion is, in my opinion, man made. Churches were built to "call" the masses into prayer to keep them under control. Fear of what God would do to you if you displeased him was used to keep people in check and indeed, is still done today.

 

I must say, your posts have been top drawer tonight COL.

The only thing I can add is that trying to get one's head around religion is guaranteed to drive one insane as it contradicts itself at every turn. If you want to question big things like the origin of the Universe, you'd be well advised to bin religious input from the beginning as it'd be like using a 6 year old child's school book for guidance.

Worse than useless.

I used to be a religious person in a former life but there can be no denying that it is a man-made concept. Everything about it is infantile in nature, quite sadistic and flawed to the point of absurdity. Its no coincidence that the more religious a person is, the more intolerant and narrow-minded they're likely to be.

There's no reason why you shouldn't say there isn't a religious God. Its not up to you to disprove it as you're not the one making the claim. The burden of proof is on the person who believes such fables. You can't prove Leprechauns or the Jolly Green Giant don't exist either but you wouldn't give such notions the time of day. Why then afford respect to the idea of a flying Donkey and a talking Snake?

Don't let them break you man.

 

Problem I have with that theory is that so many religions appear to be copies of other/previous theories/beliefs. This suggests to me that they must be made up.

 

...although one has to recognise the enormous good that has also been done in God's name, such as the beautiful architecture, art, music, the establishment of schools and hospitals and so forth (to give examples from just Christianity alone, but could easily apply to others).

 

It seems obvious to me that religion was invented as a means of control.

 

I was slower than you.

 

OR that they all come from the same source?

 

A couple of things I'd pick up on there.

Firstly, whilst some religious people are intolerant and narrow minded as you say, I feel religious people can be very kind and helpful in community situations. They have an outlook on life to help their neighbour and do good deeds. This can only be a good thing imo. Thing is, one can live by these principals without being remotely religious. "Help thy neighbour" etc is just good citizenship.

I actually don't think I CAN say there isn't a God. There may be one, in some form or another. I certainly find it more of a stretch to presume that the universe came from NOTHING!! I just don't believe in a religious God. However, believing in religion can give people enormous comfort, especially at great times of stress etc. It can also be the cause of untold blood-shed and has been since the beginning of religious times.

 

I think it is a little unfair, Travis, to suggest that everything in religion is infantile. It is only fair to recognise the tremendous good as well as the bad that religion has offered, and I refer you to my earlier comments about schools, hospitals and so forth, most of which were certainly introduced in numbers by the church.

 

You may be right. I don't believe it myself. I think one version was made up and the rest followed on.

I do however suspect that Aliens have been here many thousands of years ago. Things like the pyramids point to this and Aliens could, quite conceivably be our ancestors too.......maybe!

 

Indeed.

 

Sorry Uber, didn't mean it that way. Christopher Hitchens was a great man and his brother is a **** in my opinion.

 

You've been watching too much Prometheus. DT's gonna love this.

 

We've crossed wires slightly I think (not for the first time, eh? ) . I didn't mean you shouldn't say there is a God, its a religious God - IE all the nonsensical yarns and trappings that go with that. That there may be some sort of creator is a different argument. At least that's something that could stand up to some degree of scrutiny (although I'd stop short of calling it a benevolent creator as that's just ridiculous. I refer you to my Sig in that instance.)

As for religion doing good, I don't think it is required. No reason for people not to do all that stuff without it.

Yes it can give people comfort in difficult times but it can also terrify people during difficult times as well if you were to take its teachings literally.

People would have offered all of that if religion never existed, Herr Uber. As a matter of fact, there would have been far less hurt and cruelty throughout the ages had that of been the case.

But I know what you're sayin' my man.