OT - Über's Open Debate Thread

None taken, Travis. Terrorist seems to me to be a bit of a catch-all for any Johnny Foreigner with a grudge... unless he's a pirate.

 

Inside each of us we have to look at what evidence there is and on 9/11 there are too many odd things
People died in a horrible way I focus on any bad loss of life
Start with Loose Change on You Tube and see if raises any doubts for you
Enter with a open mind and see where it takes you Col ... I was left baffled and there are more questions that answers IMO

WMD... The world believed that was real and they didn't even find any slug pellets

The lad that got shot on the underground ... Britain cheered at the time

Falklands

The weather forecast and amber alerts

Buddhist Yoga teachers on diets worshipping a fat idol while watching pop idol

Go back further

WW1 WW2 against the evil nazis ... We fought clean wars? and Germans can't ride a motorbike without crashing into a duck pond ... They were useless at making motors then now we aim to drive on

The Crusades and Simon de Montfort

It all to me smells of hypocrisy to me

I don't have any answers but will never pushed into thinking anything that don't add up based on the evidence I get to see

 

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You really want to hang on to your right to watch free porn without anyone knowing don't you? That's fine by me, but lets give you a hypothetical - two planes going to the same destination at the same time at the same price. One has security checks, the other doesn't. Which plane would most normal people get on?

'We' managed to 'calm down' the IRA through the work of John Mitchell, a US Senator, with the active support of successive US presidents, without whom it would never have happened.

Well, so the Americans are now Nazis (mind you they were probably a put up job by some secret agency too, in your mind).. All those TV programmes you sit in your darkened sock staring at...American aren't they? That hockey team you name yourself after....American isn't it? Come clean, you love them! The Chinese do regularly wipe out innocent citizens, in China. No one does anything, because its the Chinese, they've got all the money and the means of production. Shame you've got me on ignore, I told you about that earlier.

The internet is not a wholly reliable source of accurate information Flyer, especially the kind of sites you must be visiting. But it is hugely democratic, allows anybody to publish any made up **** they want, instantly.

I'm loving this.

 

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A good starting place Col:

[video=youtube;CDx1GLqvBO8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDx1GLqvBO8[/video]

 

please log in to view this image

 

Want to look into it more?:

[video=youtube;Z__4ZhF36Mc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z__4ZhF36Mc[/video]

 

Yeah, my suggestion that everybody is prepared to negotiate and compromise and put away their weapons was **** (as Stroller also pointed out). But I don't think the answer lies solely with military action either. Perhaps what is required is action to take out the zealous heads, then another form of engagement once this has been done?

I often find myself wishing very different cultures would simply keep themselves to themselves, other than to meet each other at borders to trade, but that way lies xenophobia etc.

The point about the Chinese or Russians is a good one. What we don't do is pick on somebody our own size. It is relatively 'easy' to rattle one's sabre at some small Middle Eastern state, but a wholly different matter when it comes to human rights abuses in global superpowers. On a slightly tenuous aside, it is interesting (and depressing) to note that we declared war on Germany because of our 'guarantee' to Poland, and yet sacrificed them to Soviet Russia at the end of the conflict. Our war against the evils of Nazism did not extend to a war on the evils of Stalinism. Uncle Joe was, I believe, ultimately responsible for more innocent deaths than Hitler. It was generally agreed to stay out of that one and thus avert nuclear war; in fact, many on the Left that campaigned for unilateral nuclear disarmament during the Cold War may well be the same that will now send our brave young boys & girls into Syrian-type conflicts. Just me, I know, but I struggle to comprehend it all.

Doing nothing whilst innocent people suffer is inhuman, but that's exactly what we did during the Cold War, and that's exactly what we are doing in respect of China, North Korea, Burma and other such states. (You could probably toss in a few South American regimes too.) But perhaps the suffering and loss of life will ultimately be less (on a global, law of unintended consequences sort of way) by keeping out of Syria than getting involved... as inhuman and as revolting as that may seem. More ****, I guess. I dunno the answer.

Like you say, very depressing.

 

Balls, nothing to disagree with in there for me, we have to stop doing this.

I really fear for my kids in this toxic world. I can't see any way through this other than generations of education (of people who shoot girls who want to go to school in the head) and wealth generation - well educated and well off people tend to be less inclined to blow themselves and others up if they have a nice house a big telly and can read. Long shot and decades in the making.

 

Go on, try! How about the bit about my views being a load of ****? (There should be an animated '****' smiley)

 

As Stan says, education is probably the key - and a general realisation that organised religion is **** (to borrow your term). Uber, you quoted Peter Hitchens earlier - I think his late brother spoke much more sense.

 

Have to say i've probably joined this too late to make any meaningfull post of any sense, so i wont try
But Ubber (!?) what a great thread!



DT, I watched those loose change docs years ago and was left wondering too?

 

Right..........I've just sat through the entire full version of loose change (1Hr 19mins).
There are undoubtedly some unanswered questions, but this thing is full of flaws.
It uses lots of unsubstantiated anonymous e mails and out-of-context quotes, such as Rumsie apparently admitting that the US brought down the twin towers........he didn't!!
We are supposed to accept that all the calls made from the various hijacked planes were faked and it's even suggested that some new fangled software is used to FAKE the voices of loved ones etc.
There are three live news picture of the 2nd plane hitting the tower, so we have to assume that all three news companies were in on the scam. Also, presumably every single video shot from people's phones on the ground and every single eye witness who says they saw planes hitting the twin towers and the Pentagon are faked and in on the scam!
Also, apparently some of the passengers were actually landed somewhere else and then made to disappear.

Sorry.................this is ridiculous stuff.

I have no doubt that the American security agencies got caught out on 9/11 and a lot of mistakes were made. This would explain a certain amount of covering up (wrong, of course).

I get the impression that you like to question everything Dave and cast doubt on all things...are we really here? Does the universe exist? Are we conscious? Etc Etc.
You carry on questioning all things. It's healthy sometimes to do this I agree.

I prefer to believe certain things based on a reasonably intelligent take on evidence presented to me.

(Say hi to Elvis for me).

 

I rather enjoy/enjoyed them both. There's enough in a lot of what Peter says that makes a great deal of sense. The Left don't like him because (1) he's not his brother, and (2) he is a reformed Trotskyist. Curiously, Peter opposed the Iraq war whilst Christopher supported it.

 

Col, I cant disagree with any of that and as you say this would have to be the worlds biggest cover up and conspiracy theory ever. But just a thought...this was the worlds biggest mass murder / act of terrorism, so maybe just maybe.

But from memory,( i havent seen it for years) whilst it left some unanswered questions, it also seems like a hell of a lot of coicidences, scams, plants, fake info etc would have all had to come together at exactly the same and correct time for it to work.
I just cant see anyone pulling that off...ESPECIALLY the Yanks

Of course I may be wrong? - remember JFK?

 

Exactly. Problem is, these conspiracy theories can question everything, but they seldom stand up to scrutiny.
I once saw a programme that suggested that the moon landings were faked (not a new claim I know). It said things like the flags looked wrong and the shadows were wrong etc.
I then listened to Prof Brian Cox and other expert scientists who explained every single thing in a scientific way. Every conspiracy claim was rubbished.
We can now see the things that were left on the moon by the moon landings, but of course it's claimed that they're faked too.

Everything COULD be a fake. I prefer to believe certain things based on the evidence presented. I can also change my mind when given such evidence. For example, I was sure that a religious God existed when I was growing up. My parents believed it and I accepted it as fact. Over the years I have looked into the "evidence" and come to the conclusion that I don't believe in a religious God. I believe there could be something that started the universe off (or the universe before that etc), an intelligent force of some kind........maybe. But I don't believe there's a God as described in religious beliefs.

Some people just want to call EVERYTHING into question. Their right I suppose.

 

I haven't watched this yet (I will), but what you normally find with these conspiracy theories (e.g. the moon non-landing) is that in themselves they can be fairly convincing, but that they are very easily - and more convincingly - rebutted.

The question I tend to ask myself is - how would they think they could get away with it?