OT - Über's Open Debate Thread

Well i hope the tide has finally turned, we were so desperate to get involved in Syria but the public put the PM in his place. Im glad at least our population is finally starting to wise up and not falling for the lies, last time it was WMD, this time is what chemical weapons when in fact it was Al Qaeda/USA using them. I dont think the US population will wake up at they are so brainwashed that they will get their little mini flags out and chant "USA!, USA!" at the 1st sign of war.

People dont even realise the US is funding Al Qaeda again, they probably dont even realise the US created and armed them to fight the soviets in the 80s in the first place.

You know how messed up its got when the Russians are now the level headed country keeping things calm in the middle east, we would have had a world war if Putin hadnt put Obama in his place.

 

I actually think Miliband deserves credit for not backing intervention in Syria - yes public opinion was against it, but it was also against going into Iraq.

 

You've got me on ignore, haven't you Sweetie? Have you ever been near a bomb going off? I have, at the Ideal Home show in 1976. Let me tell you, I felt threatened. There have been hundreds of thousands of deaths in Iraq, Somalia, Syria, Libya, Afghanistan etc over the last ten years and it is an enduring tragedy. The US (and UK and France which drew the idiotic borders for most of these nations in the first place) certainly has to answer for some of this, but only an idiot would attribute deaths caused by fighting in crumbling dictatorships between warlords, armed militias and different Islamic sects entirely to the US.

So you believe 9/11, 7/7, the Woolwich murder, Westgate in Kenya were manufactured in order to invade your privacy? Outstanding.

Nothing personal Flyer, but I'll come back at you every time on this bollocks. Truth is there is no black and white, right and wrong in all this, it's all about the lesser of 2 evils. Technology is used to plot terror attacks, government spying, terror prevention and browsing porn. The technology is amoral by nature, the fact that it exists, is cheap and open to all, is the game changer. If you don't like the personal consequences get off the net and throw your mobile away. Don't use credit cards, only cash. We survived without these things not very long ago, and many elderly and poor people around the world still do. But if you want the benefit of the technology accept the risk that goes with it.

 

I have reached the conclusion that there is nothing that can actually be done to completely eradicate the world of terrorism without at some point coming to a negotiated settlement with your foes. I absolutely hate it that this seems to be the case, but can see no other alternative. Western leaders can prance about on the world stage as much as they like, being the big 'I am' and sending fresh-faced soldiers to fight and die, but sooner or later some sort of deal is done.

Northern Ireland is a great example. Of course, you can argue that some of the agitators on both sides have simply gone underground, perhaps racketeering and exacting punishment beatings and carrying out the odd murder that doesn't get as much coverage as in the past, so as not to dent the success story of the Peace Process, but nevertheless we are given to believe that things are better there now that they have their own assembly and both sides have to work together.

It is no surprise to me that North Africa and Asia have become hotbeds for terrorist recruitment. I can imagine the young of those regions have very few life choices open to them and are easy pickings to those offering hope, a cause and a sense of belonging. They no doubt see the West and its 'decadent' lifestyle, plundering their oil and other natural resources, whilst they are left to eke out a meagre existence. When the US dropped bombs from a great height on Libya in the early 80s (?) it is little wonder that the innocents that suffered these outrages were left hating the cowardly infidel.

It doesn't help either that Western leaders appear to talk down to them too.

The invasion of Iraq was more to do with Bush Junior finishing off what Bush Senior was prevented from doing. For years it was the West that help keep Saddam in power and armed him in Iraq's wars against Iran. When the wind changed direction the Bush family exacted their revenge, with the Blair poodle trotting alongside, under the auspices of WMD, then a pathetic excuse called 'regime change'. As we have seen, all that has been achieved is another region of unrest, fomenting terrorism, where largely it is only the innocent people that suffer. The wretched Blair creature, when he's not something called a 'peace envoy' is sitting in his counting house, counting all his money. It's sick.

As harsh though it may sound, I subscribe to the school of thought that we should do everything in our power to stay out of conflicts that have nothing to do with us, but instead seek peaceful relations with the winner. I know that's a hard thing to say when innocent people are being gassed and burned, but I don't think anybody should have the power to send some poor British soldier to fight and maybe die in places such as Syria if they're not prepared to go with them.

Peter Hitchens offered a good idea some years back that world leaders should be denied personal security and bodyguard protection, as this would then make them think a lot harder about the decisions they take and how they will impact upon others. Of course it'll never happen, and there are practical reasons why not, but it's a nice thought.

 

I knew all of that ...I believe that the USA even control Al Qaeda today ... they rule through fear ... stir it all up and sit back and watch ... Yes snippets get out of hand but they are low level news in the big scheme of things. I tend to listen more today to the Artist Taxi Driver and David Icke. On the question of tech its exactly why terrorists as we call them can avoid detection ... you de tec then who are you looking for? ... word of mouth and post it notes by far the best way to plan anything ... hence the drone increase . In the effort to be clever the US has become a e easy target.

I firmly believe that 9/11 and 7/7 were the work of higher powers that we are led to believe.... I just buy into the rubbish presented and the FBI building demolishment after the event on 9/11 is something i will never understand , the hole in the pentagon etc etc ... The loss was real however and I think of that a lot ... the losers in all of this. but to date no master plan has ever been found to show the world. I have just had to move on as we all do hoping that the money gets turned back on and this sick nation can then borrow against their houses all over again ... why this? because it revolves around the west having a beautiful lifestyle. No wonder we at all looked upon with green eyes

 

How do you negotiate with someone who believes that if he blows himself and scores of others to bits, he is doing God's will and will be rewarded with a place in heaven?

 

You can't, because he will rest at nothing until he's killed trying to kill you. What you can do, however, is engage with those most vulnerable to these ideals before they've been recruited to martyrdom.

This so-called 'War on Terrorism' is a war without ending. You cannot successfully destroy an ideal, which is what Alky Ada is, by armed conflict alone. It is not an organisation like SPECTRE or THRUSH, with Donald Pleasance sitting in a black chair stroking Mrs Slocum's pussy. Ultimately, the only way you can eradicate it is by means other than the bullet and the bomb; perhaps not negotiation, I'll concede.

I don't want this to go on forever; I can't imagine anybody does. So, I'd be interested in the thoughts of others: just how do you defeat Alky Ada?

 

Powerful stuff Uber. I'd love to believe we could negotiate with some of these people. But there is a material difference between them and the likes of the IRA and even the PLO - which had clear political aims, even if they were unacceptable on the face of it, there was the basis of a negotiation there. Religious fundamentalists don't have that, their aim is complete destruction of western civilization (and I'm sure, in the right/wrong circumstances there are enough fundamentalist christians of the type to think that a nuclear war in the Middle East will speed up the apocalypse which to them is a good thing). How do you negotiate on that, with people who think that blowing themselves up in a crowded Basra market guarantees them a spot in heaven? Baffles me, I just hate the ignorance and intolerance all this is built on.

As for staying out of it, I'm drifting in that direction myself, but mainly because of the naked government hypocrisy. We'll remove Saddam and help get rid of Gaddafi because they are nasty to their own people - actually I'm happy with that - but it only works with weak/small countries. But the Chinese government is just as bad, and of course we would not touch them, or even North Korea in case it upsets the Chinese or Russians. I fully expect to see some sort of horrible pogrom against homosexuals in Russia soon, and we will protest but do nothing. Perhaps we should just say '**** it' and stay out. The Americans have done this in the past and are much more likely to do it than us.

But then when you see the slaughter in Syria, and we have the means to do something about it, its hard to sit back and say 'none of my business'. In fact its inhuman.

The other reason we can't just ignore it is the presence in our own country of radicalized fundamentalists, always looking for a target close to home. It's already here, we can't shut it out.

So we seem to be stuck in a spiral of messy conflicts with no real conclusions, ideologically immovable opponents who want nothing we can give them because they are not rational in our terms, and as a consequence the increasing levels of surveillance you kicked this thread off with. Depressing stuff.

 

Uber_Hoop;5524652: I can not imagine a civilized human being advocating standing back while whole a whole population is killed for being different. But that is what you did. Tell the group; Which one of your relatives was in the Reich?

You can not negotiate with people that want to eradicate you from the face of the Earth, just because you don't believe as they do. It just doesn't work. Didn't your Country learn that you have to stand up to bullies, not appease them?

I agree with you that all Western countries should be hands-off in the Middle East in countries that don't want to be trading partners or allies. It would save a lot of Western lives. I get the feeling that the problem would take care of itself. The Arab nations would devolve into a pre-industrial society in no time with their quirky rules about everything.

 

Dismantle the alphabet agencies who created, train and supply money and arms to them. They are just the bogeymen created in order to bring in lots of restrictive laws. How else would they get people to take off their shoes and throw away shampoo bottles in order to get on a plane?

We managed to calm things down with the IRA and that wasn'tdone by murdering hundreds of thousands of innocents. People only hate the west because of the tactics of the US. The yanks are the only ones who I can stop it by stopping the killing but their whole country is built on war and I'm sure in a hundred years time, they will be looked back on as the Nazis are now except see nothing wrong as we are to the US as Italy was to the Nazis.

Imagine what the yanks would be like if the Chinese regularly used drone strikes to wipe out hundreds of people at weddings. Remember, terrorists, rebels or freedom fighters are all the same, the description just depends on which side you are from.

 

I think the word "terrorist" is bandied about far too freely (no offence Uber). We like to label such people thus so as to give ourselves a moral advantage, to make us feel better, really. But as bad as the suicide bomber is, is he any more a terrorist than the man who presses a button from the safety of his cockpit 30,000 feet above the earth, unleashing unimaginable carnage on the area it strikes? Would the same "terrorist" be using himself as a human bomb if he had the use of F-14 fighter Jets? Would the guerrilla be hiding behind a hedge if he could hide behind 8 inches of armored Tank replete with 120mm Cannon?

Personally I'm of the opinion that the biggest terrorists in recent times were the United States and Allied administrations who, via their forces of carnage, destroyed an entire region and slaughtered hundreds of thousands of people all for, well we know what for. Then to think that we might be the ones who have to hold our noses to speak to those "terrorists", to be honest, it beggars belief.

I have an idea of real terrorism and terrorists and its not the brainwashed simpleton with fuse primed, ready to to collect his 30 virgins. Its the self-righteous scumbags in suits that created the scenario in which people are driven to such depraved desperation. Just like religious bigots denouncing all and sundry with their hypocrisy, these people's double standards are stomach churning.

 

Why does that not surprise me?

 

Utter anti-American bollocks!

The reason we are lucky enough not to suffer too many terrorist incidents is mainly due to the combined efforts of all the security forces World-wide.
There have been some very good responses on here along with the usual over-the-top America bashing!

 

Speaking for the closet imperialist in some of us.

We should never have let them have their independance...........None of this would of happened.

Creation of Isreal - Backed by USA
Division of British Empire - Dammand by USA for "Technical assistance" in WW2
Haphazard foreign Policy - Wouldn't need to invade or bully territory you already hold. (Persia, Palestine, Egypt, Kenya..... All gone or going to rat ****.)

Just how many people could be alive if we had played with a strong offensive stroke around 1940....... (No we won't dismantle the British Empire and if you don't help us we might **** on you, again!) It would have been a bit of a gamble though.

When the Roman Empire colapsed there followed the Dark ages. Now we have iDark Age+ with added bullshit.

 

Good grief

 

Sorry Rhino but I don't think you/we "let" anyone have anything.

You/we fought a war to hold onto it!

 

Please, please tell me you don't really believe that the US carried out 9/11 against itself and the UK did the same with 7/7? Does Elvis work down your local chip shop too?

 

I firmly believe that a lot if not most news is fed to us. We of course cannot be privy to the very underworld that controls power ... It is IMO a very necessary evil
8 out of 10 cats IMO believe for instance that Palestine are really to blame at what is the heart of the differences
Religion and beliefs we put down anyone's else's as not being as good as our own interpretations
One god who's God?
Human rights then apply the same aggression to what SB says China and NK
Aid ... We are all for building great infrastructure in some African countries but all roads lead to their rich natural resources do they not?
How do we justify arm sales ?
Tech ... Developed for the Armies we pay our taxes for and drip fed back to us with a double edged tax ... Brilliant
Getting other countries to do the hard work for peanuts while we just move imaginary money around the globe while holding onto the patents of our inventions to make even more if the stuff
Outside looking in I would be pretty pissed myself

My simple rule is ... We are super lucky to have been born on this part of the globe so I respect all men and women that are kind face to face to me
Anyone who brings trouble for troubles sake gets double back

I gave everything away in 2007 and haven't looked back ... I am lucky because since then better things have been given to me ... I don't believe that is just luck

Wipe will continue to struggle to come to terms with things outside our control IMO.... We are but worms

 

Hmmm,

Politics at home, Mad king & usual power struggle. We were in a mess and the coloniel businessmen knew it. They took full advantage. Who wouldn't.

We only had to make concessions on tax.