Based on this season as a point of comparison, no good compaing 50 shots to 10 if the guy with 50 shots has played 10 times as much, thought that point would be rather apparant. Anyhow, here is a very interesting few stats for you, based on the start of this Premier League season. Now you can say we shouldn't judge, but then I am not being unfair, and am judging all players for the start to the season, so its a fair comparison. [table="width:100%"][tr][td]Player[/td][td]De Guzman[/td][td]Hernandez[/td][td]Dyer[/td][td]Routs[/td][td]Michu[/td][td]Shelvey[/td][/tr] [tr][td]Appearances[/td][td]3(3)[/td][td]2(1)[/td][td]6[/td][td]8[/td][td]8[/td][td]7[/td][/tr] [tr][td]Goals[/td][td]1[/td][td]1[/td][td]1[/td][td]0[/td][td]2[/td][td]1[/td][/tr] [tr][td]Assists[/td][td]-[/td][td]2[/td][td]-[/td][td]2[/td][td]1[/td][td]1[/td][/tr] [tr][td]Shots[/td][td]1.3[/td][td]2[/td][td]1.3[/td][td]0.5[/td][td]3[/td][td]1.9[/td][/tr] [tr][td]Key Passes[/td][td]0.8[/td][td]2[/td][td]1.5[/td][td]1.4[/td][td]2[/td][td]1[/td][/tr] [tr][td]Successful Dribbles[/td][td]0.8[/td][td]1.7[/td][td]1.5[/td][td]0.6[/td][td]0.9[/td][td]0.7[/td][/tr] [tr][td]Dispossessed[/td][td]2.7[/td][td]2[/td][td]1[/td][td]1[/td][td]0.4[/td][td]1[/td][/tr][/table] Routs is the worst offensive midfield type player for scoring. Dyer and De Guzman have not assisted a single goal so far in the prem. Routs has the worst shots per game ratio. De Guzman makes the least key passes per game Routs has the least most successful dribbles De Guzman is dispossessed more than any other player. So offensivly, Routs and De Guzman, not so good. [table="width:100%"][tr][td]Player[/td][td]De Guzman[/td][td]Hernandez[/td][td]Dyer[/td][td]Routs[/td][td]Michu[/td][td]Shelvey[/td][/tr] [tr][td]Tackles[/td][td]1[/td][td]2[/td][td]1.5[/td][td]0.8[/td][td]1[/td][td]1.3[/td][/tr] [tr][td]Interceptions[/td][td]0.5[/td][td]0.7[/td][td]0.7[/td][td]1.5[/td][td]0.5[/td][td]1.4[/td][/tr] [tr][td]Turnovers[/td][td]0.7[/td][td]1.7[/td][td]2[/td][td]1.8[/td][td]0.9[/td][td]1.1[/td][/tr] [tr][td]Clearances[/td][td]0.2[/td][td]2.7[/td][td]0.3[/td][td]0.6[/td][td]2[/td][td]2.1[/td][/tr] [tr][td]Dribbled Past[/td][td]0.8[/td][td]1.7[/td][td]0.7[/td][td]0.9[/td][td]1[/td][td]1[/td][/tr] [tr][td]Blocked Shots[/td][td]-[/td][td]-[/td][td]-[/td][td]-[/td][td]-[/td][td]0.3[/td][/tr][/table] Routs has the worst tackles per game De Guzman and Michu have the worst interceptions. De Guzman has a lower average of turnovers per game (not bad as he gets dispossessed the most too) De Guzman has the worst clearances average. Routs get dribbled past the most. All are never there to block shots So is De Guzman really that good going forward to counter his ineffective defensive work? However, maybe we should look a bit more closer at Routs at the same time, as based on his start of season averages, he has not play well either.
You said he is better than a lot of people think, and you think his criticism is a little undeserved and that we should be looking at others too, which to a certain degree your right. But when others are spoken about, we are talking of mistakes, where as for me personally, de guzman is to do with a lack of effort going back, which is not something you can put down to being a mistake. He can do it, I know he can do it, but why won't he? If memory serves me right, it was all around the time of the Cup Final, didn't he get his international call up not long before it as well? Ever since then he has not been the same player, many said the exact same thing, that based on his first half of the season, they would buy him, but after the second half of the season, they would not want him back. Why is that? Because his game style changed, he become lazy tracking back, and as a CM that is criminal. Its not that he can't, its that he thinks he doesn't need too. Next time we play, I beg you to watch him with his defensive duties, he strolls, he jogs, he does not give two ****s about helping the back, he does not bust a gut to get back, many times he has cost us goals due his lethargic approach to helping out his team mates at the back. Our full backs help in an attacking sense, and as part of that tactic, our central midfielder's are supposed to help out defensively. There is no excuse for his laziness at helping to defend as a team.
I don't need to watch him mate ive seen his flaws early doors ! Is Vorms inability to control his area a mistake or something he feels he doesn't quite fancy doing for fear of getting hurt ? Love your stats but as I said before JDG started the season behind everyone else ,pre-season was a catch up and so its been up until a few games back, again the stats don't back up his lack of fitness compared to the others . Its why last seasons figures are the ones to look at if at all . Again you have almost made my point . you refer to JDG being crap after the coc final but EVERYONE was a crap ! JDG sticks in your mind but he wasn't the only one playing ****,one of the biggest culprits was Ash Williams .also chico flores and rangel , now you could argue that those players have been equally **** since that day to this but for some reason people chose not to see it. I keep mentioning Vorm, he is another classic example, not being the same player since perhaps his injury against city, but no mention of his iffy positional play since that day and no mention of the fact he doesn't get down quite as quick as he used to, yet JDG faults keep getting mentioned when ever possible and I garentee it will also happen when the honeymoon period wears off for Bony. All our players carry faults and some of them get a pass and some of them get hammered, ive done my share of JDG bashing , I felt the same way as many do now but there comes a time when us as fans have to realise that the manager knows better than us and he sees things we don't . Its quite obvious to many that tracking back isn't his best traite but Laudrup thinks he offers us enough to compensate his flaws, the stats from last season bare that out irrelevant of the time on field you still have to produce, for many years,since bode we have watched midfielders fail to deliver any kind of decent balls ,so to automatically assume JDG should be ahead of everyone on stats because he takes corners and free kicks isn't fair, especially when you consider exactly how many headers and free kicks we have scored from ,which ast season was about none !! @_
For me personally Vorm not getting down quick enough, is because I think he is a bit afraid of what happened against City, it was an innocuous landing. As for others, yes they played poorly, but......we are not talking about playing poorly, I am talking about a lack of effort. Not the sort of 5% effort dropped after our season was over, but selective effort. He wants to get involved going forward, but when it comes to going back, he doesn't want to know. He is either not interested, like most last season, or he is, not when he wants, that is what my problem with him is. The whole team, as you pointed out didn't play as good as we knew they could, to say they played **** I cannot agree with, our run in was horrid anyway, and we lost that 5% after the final, but we were not ****. Heads dropped, but De Guzman, got lazy, his head was dropped, in regards to his play, going forward, but he did not care about tracking back. Thats just wrong, and cannot understand how you can compare the heads dropping to a complete lack of effort. They are not remotely comparable. Vorm has a weakness in commanding his area, but does he avoid doing it altogether because of it? No. Does De Guzman have the attitude that he doesn't need to defend, yes.
Yes he has plenty, that's why he drives his Ferrari around Swansea not Barcelona Chico has dropped his standards and started to believe his hype a little bit too much, that is one of his failings, his ego is writing cheques his skill set cant match , next question ?
I would say Vorm does avoid this actually. Its your view that the others genuinely dropped off after the cup final but it was accepted though JDG's effort dropping off is a major issue for you ? isn't that a bit hypocritical ? 5% is acceptable then ? Its your opinion that he doesn't want to know ,for all we know he may be told to keep himself for the attacking 3rd and to not chase up and down all game , I know for a fact Laudrup wanted DG to do less running of the corners to be more effective in bursts around the area, maybe its a similar thing with JDG ? What may be lack of effort to you may be tactical plan to the manager , I think JDG doesn't work as hard as other midfielders but as I have maintained from my very first post his good points seem to out weigh his bad points, something that ive yet to be challenged on despite your love of stats . Has he won us more games than he has lost us ? He may not run around enough for some fans but it looks like the manager see s enough in the player, im comfortable with that ,if he could do it all he wouldn't be playing for Swansea
The difference between the mistakes that Vorm, Chico et al make and JdG comes down to this. All mistakes by any player are not intentional, at least I hope they're not. But de Guzman makes a CONSCIOUS decision, which IS intentional, not to do his fair share of tackling and covering. At least so far as I see it. That is a big difference. I wonder how the dressing room views it? I know when I played, his sort of player got an earful from his team mates but then there is a world of difference between the two levels so perhaps the comparison doesn't work. I do know this, though. Ivor was a fitness fanatic and had no time for shirkers. He even used to chew me out in training when I eased up and by then I was just doing it for fun as I had stopped playing regularly!! He expected input and effort from everyone on the park and let you know if he wasn't getting it. I suppose it boils down to a comparison of what he costs the team and what he produces. Stats have been produced (not an easy job) to give us an idea but they can only show so much. To date, I have judged by the evidence of my own eyes and how I would feel if I was playing with him. My emotions usually range from wanting to strangle him to wanting his babies - but strangulation usually wins the day. I guessed there might be problems when I saw mild-mannered Leon bawling him out in one of his very early appearances - safe to say that Leon wasn't impressed with the crap situations that JdG was leaving him to deal with. Perhaps an indication of things to come. I'll just say this to finish. If de Guzman could add some graft to the rest of his game, he'd be quite a player. You can't add talent but anyone can discipline themselves to do more to help the team. It's a shame that he's not prepared to do it.
Dropping effort is 1 thing, lack of effort is another, do you really not see the difference? I see the potential in him, I really do, he has already shown us in the past, but I am not going to sit here and pretend I am happy with him, when I know he can do so much better. He has done it, so its not like it a part of his game that he needs to learn, he knows it already. Norway, with all due respect, how many of us are saying the same thing, compared to how many defend him, usually the masses tell a truer story than two people sharing an opinion. Now I am not sayin everyone is saying the same, but so far no otehr is defending him like you, there is probably a reason for that. I know you defend a player based on your own opinion, me and you both stuck up for Pablo last season, so much so we got accused of being one in the same ok that was IP, but meh lol. But I cannot stick up for De Guzman's lack of effort, not less effort, but complete lack of. Its just not on, and I honestly cannot fathom how your making excuses for him. He is a central midfielder, who even if is told to be an offensive focused CM, will still track back. Its not that he is being told not too, else he wouldn't jog calmly back towards our area, if he was told not too, he would stand his ground, its a lack of effort when it comes to getting back, he is already on the way there, a little effort and he is there in a defensive capacity, its not going against what he is being told, or else he wouldn't be making his way back, its a pure lack of effort. No urge to get back quicker (yes he is getting back, but with no effort what so ever, which again, wouldn't be happening if hew was told not too) So really, I cannot understand where you are coming from one bit. Lets both watch him next game, if it is as you say, that maybe Laudrup is telling him not to defend, then I expect him to end up nowhere near our 18 yeard box, other than for free kicks and corners, as if he is there, then he isn't being told not to get back.
What, for one and a half seasons like the JDG thing ?? jog on fella your out of your depth a bit on this one Chico has been good,lately he has been ****e .simples , I will not however spend the whole season going on about it though !..
My biggest criticism about JDG, was his half hearted tackle on Wilshire leading to Ramsey scoring for Arsenal.
1 from a corner, and 2 from crosses. 2 of his other goals came from attempted shots by JDG that came back to Michu to tap in, so not entirely a true assists. Another header came from Ki's corner (i think), I believe Dyer got an assist on 1 header, and maybe it was Routs with the other. I cannot remember it all, was in that 22 goal video on youtube. I didn't include cup games, only prem games, in which I don't think he scored a header in the cup.
There is nowhere on this thread I have defended a lack of effort , ive just said he is what he is and that his good points are out weighing his bad points! No matter what happens with the player a more informed man than you or me thinks his contribution is a positive one, he is the man that matters and in fairness he doesn't get much wrong. Nobody likes a shirker, and I have seen JDG get a bollocking but not that often ! so that leads me to think that its not always his job to track players back but to be the man to start the move when we recover . Laudrup isn't known for tolerating shirkers that's for sure so in that respect we need to think that maybe there is a reason why he isn't running around like a headless chicken ? Players who have not put in the required effort have left the club im sure that if JDG was going against the team ethic then he wouldn't be so favoured . The point still stands though, does his overall game help us or hinder us ? you would have to say based on last seasons stats his game gets us points not loses us points, irrelevant of the fact he doesn't run around and track back enough
I must add that all our players lack certain qualities, JDG not tracking back his player may be his, if he had that then he would not be playing for the swans. If chico could concentrate and maintain a business like approach all of the time then he would not be playing for Swansea. If Vorm could command his area he wouldn't be playing for Swansea. Decideing on who puts in effort and who doesn't is imo a difficult thing to asses, we as fans don't know the whole picture , it could be said that Chico doesn't like to put his head to everything because he doesn't want to get hurt! it could be said that vorm doesn't like to come for crosses because he doesn't want to get injured again. Rangel doesn't like to tackle his man and prefers to back off him until he is virtually on top of goal because he doesn't want to look foolish by getting skinned by pace . That's my point here, the players all got faults some have bad ones some don't, I feel the point is so laboured with JDG that it now becomes the first thing people talk about but we don't know the full facts unless we are in the changing room. It could be that he is supposed to track and he isn't doing it ,it could be that he is supposed to pass the player onto our defensive mid and pick up the opposition defensive mid , there are so many different aspects to a game that we don't know about . football is a very basic thing but in other aspects it sometimes isn't as basic as we first think
Some very good points of view lads, and I agree with Ivor's first post, and also Lone Ranger has it spot on too, a cheeky little January bid for £2 Million is about right for the contract he has left. The way I see it is this, if you take away De Guzman's set piece skill, then he is decidedly very average, so for me I think £4 Million would be the top I would be prepared to pay, when you consider that we only paid £5 Million for Shelvey, who is a box to box player in the mold of Pratley, with a much better engine and work rate than De Guzman!.................
Have only read the first couple of pages so I apologise if I'm repeating others' arguments but here's my view. De Guzman is not lazy he's just not very good at tackling/defending. As someone pointed out, he runs long distances. He has a good engine. He uses this to good effect with and without the ball. With the ball he makes intelligent runs to make space for others and get up with the front 3/4 when attacking. He's always available for the pass where we need him to be and this is where most of his assists come from...not set pieces, for christ's sake, we are **** at getting on the end of them. We have a height deficiency. Without the ball he uses his engine to close the opposition down, to good effect, usually in the opposition half. More often than not I notice he is the midfielder who assists Michu and/or Bony to close down defenders. I believe this job to be vital. It harries the opposition defenders and anchor man to misplace a pass....statistically the player who gets the credit is the one making the interception...or winning the header...or landing the tackle. I prefer him deputising for Michu but he can handle centre-midfield if we are playing in a game where we need to attack and he has Britton/Canas next to him....don't know the stats but have a hunch that this is how Laudrup has used him in well over 90% of his appearances. He can be an excellent passer (sometimes he'll play 2/3 raking passes in 5-10 minutes switching the play and putting us on the front foot...if Shelvey does the same people are purring), he can dribble, he can deliver a good cross and he can shoot...most importantly he remains composed and as a result scores often (a rare commodity...especially in our team). £5m = good deal £5-7m = more risk but probably fair value Less than £5m = bargain iMO
NJ - I have a novel idea - let the others have their opinions! I'd post mine but you'd disagree. Anyway have a try with 2 million in January if it didn't work I'd probably pass and try for a wideman in th close season and get Poz to move into the JDG role
