Rog grow up READ the terms of the takeover GT walks ashcroft owns the club again, winter walks Ashcroft owns the club again.
I read your initial comment as saying that players were being sold to repay the Ticketus Loan, apologies if I misread it. That said, I would say they were different things. The Ticketus Loan is repaid, that we agree on (I think), the shortfall this Summer was covered by the takeover and was 3.5m. If that is the annual shortfall, provided it is all upfront we have just got from selling DG who everyone knew was going, especially when he said he wanted to play at a higher level, so we are largely covered for the short term. If I'm right, and I don't know if I am, we have no pressing financial need to bring in capital from more player sales this Summer. In any event Buckley going has provided extra. As I've said before, I consider that a good business deal and not part of some panic-stricken fire sale. Plus with have unbudgeted for income from Saracens and potentially money from Ashley Young.
Roo--not quite sure of your point there. Even Mr B would not agree to a deal that would give Ashcroft the club back if GT or Winter "walked". The terms of the deal say they cannot be sacked by Mr B--a rather different thing. At a certain point GT may decide he has had enough, and he may indeed "walk". Now how would fans react to that? Bradleysdad---from now on we will get no insight into the clubs financial position and dealings since Mr B has made the company private. Only abbreviated accounts need to be published, and you have to pay to see them. Maybe the WO will report on them. So we are left to speculate, which we will do in our own ways. I think the financial position is dire, because we are obliged to pay back the loans made by previous owners over the next couple of years , and that can only be done by players sales. Plus player sales will fund working capital and (I think) be used to pay back the loans Mr B took out to buy the club. (That last bit is my speculation).So not very much at all to reinvest in ground or squad. All a bit ironic really, since the scale of our debt (about £13.5 M before we started paying off the bonds) is quite small compared to many other clubs. But they have richer and more patient owners who are prepared to leave their debt in the club, or even add to it. We are not in that position.
Roo - good to have you back - thought we may have lost yo by having too many non football stories - I think that was only really a way to get us to grow the site - now we have dozens of members we seem to have moved back to a mainly football related set of threads - which is good - anyway I'm glad you're back as you make good contributions
Roger - I think the accounts will be a bit more transparent than than abbreviated accounts as the club will not qualify as a small company either on balance sheet assets or on number of employees. granted they won't be full PLC accounts but we will be able to get a decent amount of info. Also, I know I keep banging on about this, but who in their right mind would lend a recent bankrupt £5m to put into a football club . To say that he knew he would be able to pay it back by selling DG - did he? How about if Danny had done his cruciate in the last 3 months of the season? A bloody huge risk. Just don't see it.
C'mon - you guys appear to be accountants - tell me you could not hide a coach and horses behind the new company set up - and that is without creating holding companies - we will now get NO real information on the club.
Harrow--as a "medium sized" company (under £20m turnover approx) he can supply abbreviated accounts. Without full and public accounts we would not have known in the past (for example) the scales of salary and bonus taken by Simpson and Ashton, the facts that the Russo's got the club to pay the expenses of the EGM that led to their coup,or that they enjoyed an expensive trip to S America at the clubs expense, or that one of their directors was a VGS employee, nor would we have found out about the Ticketus deal. Football has an odd financial culture, which is even odder when club finances are neither transparent nor accountable. Who would lend to a recent bankrupt against the security of an asset who might break his leg? Don't know. That is where the speculation comes in.But is not the current crisis of capitalism caused in part by reckless lending by people who should have known better?
Roger - one thing to think about though is his family - they seem to have money and may have given certain undertakings or guarantees - or used influence to secure him backing - but essentailly you are correct - what is a recent bankrupt doing playing in this game?
You are right, however unlike small companies they have to file an abbreviated P&L. I suppose you could say 'why should we have the right to know all the details?' but I agree, more transparency would be better.
What are the facts? Advisors are Seymour Pearce a reputable firm of bankers experienced in this game who have a reputation to uphold/enhance. He outlaid just over half a million to buy up all the shares. He outlaid 3.5million as opex to see us through the season (max we do not know if all of this was drawn but an irrevocable undertaking was made that means he had these means) He was bankrupt 2-3 years ago No visible business success or means of obtaining +/- 4million UK£ His mother failed in business (Blooms) He is "friends" with Panos Thomas based upon meeting through childrens school Conjecture now Options for obtaining the sort of finance he has access too as I see it are limited to:- Lottery Family inheritence Fronting for third party As others have pointed out you do not throw money into the ring just to flush it down the pan. I'm firmly on the fence between inheritence and third party. Whats strange if the press were to be beieved is that Seymour were willing to push the Blackburn deal his way but he didn't fancy it. This would indicate to me that his bankers know he has access to a bigger pot of cash than he's shown so far but how is the 64000000$ question along with how much is he going to put in and when is he going to realise his investment (how?)
oops need to add to that the 1.5million payment was also deposited with the solicitors prior to deal so 5.5million of liquidity put in by Bassini....
So are Strand Hanson. Under half a million, and that's even if we ignore the question of whether or not it was his money. Although in fairness I suspect that £440k came entirely from Panos Thomas, and that there is some sort of deal that Dasani will get a percentage of anything the club is ever worth over £440k. More accurately, he had access to those means. That £1.5m was a guarantee on the immediate payments due to Ashcroft and Simpson, which in the very short term would have been covered by season ticket money, and will now be safe given that Buckley and Graham have been sold. That is admittedly the most curious part of this deal, that he was able to borrow £1.5m knowing that there would be no return on it. And that is for me the clinching piece of evidence pointing towards third party involvement. I agree with the rest of what you've said aberdeen, but I am still firmly convinced that he is not risking a penny of his own money. My only glimmer of hope is that whoever the players are, they recognise just how much footballing and financial value there is to be had from leaving the academy alone.
Normally when you meet someone for the first time ,you form an immediate gut instinct or initial opinion of someone! I met W-y and thought great guy, met Hornette thought wonderful woman ,met Bassini and thought WTF is this! So I`m kind of expecting the worst! The guy turns up at a black tie event in a suit that looked like pyjamas! I dont trust him one jot , but that was only my initial opinion, unfortunately I have not seen or heard anything to change my mind! Would he have the gumption to do this on his own? I doubt it! LA`s puppet maybe, 3rd party probably but surely you could pick a better front man!
Just read the offer document in more detail and actually he deposited 7 million with the solicitors to cover purchase and opex. Whose 7 million who knows but thats an awful lot to acumulate in a couple of years without some sort of e trail.... I remain hopeful in that any purchaser must surely be looking to make money and that would mean making success apart from the nagging doubt about alternate use for the ground and sarries. For someone who so far has sunk money into the club and nothing wrong theres sure a negative vibe coming from Bassini. Oh and the 1.5 million payment due March next year is part of that and on deposit.
Aww shucks... "The guy turns up at a black tie event in a suit that looked like pyjamas"!! - a classic Norway!
Should have been Pierce... I assumed some shares were purchased at over 1p anyway about .5Million He put the money in whether it was his or not Yes the 1.5 million is to guarantee March 2012 payment What all this shows is that there is some cash there to see us through the rocky period of paybacks. The plan must be to liquidate player assets at fixed points ahead of the curve for the repayment schedule and for that to work we really need to stay in the championship as the realizable value of first division assets will always be less. I maintain that we are in fact one of the best clubs in the league financially not in terms of cash but in terms of debt. I'm proud that we're facing up to the challenge and not on a ridiculous path of self destruction as are any club relying on a sugar daddy. Norway, given Mr Bs pyjama suit might his style be being influenced by a former chairman and honorary lifer do you think? Could it be Eltons money after all?
Harrow, I have to challenge you understanding of Bazini - what on earth makes you think Baz has put £5m of HIS OWN money into the club? I believe he has only engineered £440k and I don't think that is his. The club has a hole in its finances because Ashcroft (the guarantor) has signalled he wants out. The club has since borrowed from Ticketus Services 35, which is an expensive short term facility. I hope that funds are now in place to repay Ticketus on time in order to get them off our back. The Graham and Buckley sales are all "cash up front" from what I understand, for this to happen the club may have discounted their price. Until Malky indicates his long term commitment by signing significant players I will not believe our "future is golden". Simple.
Err Roo, you may like to know Julian Winter left the club today, as announced by BBC 3CR. Not good news.
Dirty money? It is 7 million of someones that has gone in but if its dirty would you want a part of it? Who knows, the more elusive the plank is the worse this will get. He will not be able to set foot inside the borough of watford soon!!!!! And our thoughts may be wrong but hes doing himself no favours.
EXACTLY what I have been saying - I don't think there is any way that it's Bazini's own money; I also don't think anyone in their right mind would lend it to him. HOWEVER it is not just £440k - £1m of the bonds were payable on the offer becoming unconditional, plus £3.5m was made available as working capital. Aberdeen has also spotted that another £1.5m has been deposited as surety over the next bond installment. He must be a front. http://www.watfordleisureplc.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/390-09-WorkingCapFac-£3.5m-10.03.11.pdf http://www.watfordleisureplc.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/390-12-LnAg-WFCL-25.03.11.pdf http://www.watfordleisureplc.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/390-13-LnAg-WFCL-LB-14.02.11.pdf These documents are in the public domain (so can we please stop saying he's only put up £440k) Rumours are that the Salads are in there somewhere (just passing on, no insider info) which might explain Winter's departure, although I do recall an interview with him that said his mission was to find new owners. I think a lot of CEs would expect to move on when a new owner arrives, like a football club's new manager bringing in his own team. i'll try to find the interview (if its not a figment of my imagination)
