w_y, don't get me started on the HS2 question. We would still be using horses and carts if the arguments being put forward against this essential scheme were to have been applied in the past. Please don't listen to the short-sighted fools and NIMBYs arguing against this much-needed boost to the UK's transport infrastructure.
Vic - can you explain the economic benefits of HS2, because they are lost on me. I would rather the money was spent improving the infrastructure we already have. Extend the platforms on the big commuter stations so that longer trains can be run, improve the links between the main networks, improve the rolling stock, get parcel freight back on the rail network. Cutting 20 mins off the current journey on Virgin to Manchester is no big benefit. I heard the transport minister explains on the radio that HS2 would create an improvement to the commuter journey from his constituency in Essex to London - just cannot see it! HS2 will be another massively over budget, over plan white elephant.
It maybe so OFH, but what difference does scale make? We trade with the huge powerhouses of the world and the smallest and that variation also exists within the EU. I still advocate a EU trade zone, but without the huge EU Institutions that is costing all of us so much with no benefit.
Scale makes a huge difference w_y. Take Tesco as an example they buy at rates that your corner shop can only dream about. French car manufacturers cannot sell enough cars so they are out-sourcing a lot of their production to eastern EU countries where labour is cheaper. We live in a world where big is the way to make a profit and countries are all hoping that the companies that sell on their behalf will make a profit that feeds back into that countries economy.
But I do not see what difference it would make to a UK not in the EU but part of a EU trade zone. Germany sells huge quantities of cars in the UK and more cars are now being made in the UK than they ever have been, this is trade. But does it need some overpaid, over expensed bureaucrat to invent more regulations because they have to to keep them in jobs. If the countries in Europe kept all of the money they pay to keep these institutions running, they would have significant funds to invest in their own countries. An example of the utter waste of the EU. Twinnings the tea company received EU funding to build a new factory and create jobs in one of the new Eastern European EU entrants. - did they do this because of the growth in demand? No they did it because they closed a factory in NE England and created the capacity that way. It's just perverse.
OK to deal with your points (which are obviously taken straight from the anti-brigades propaganda): Even the government is now admitting that the initial concentration on speed and journey time cuts from London to Birmingham was a huge mistake. IT IS CAPACITY OF THE RAIL SYSTEM THAT IS THE PROBLEM THAT NEEDS ADDRESSING. At even the most pessimistic estimate of the rate of expansion of passenger usage on the railways, the West Coast Main Line (i.e. the one going from London to Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool & Glasgow) will run out of capacity by the mid 2020s. One could argue that maybe passenger usage will not expand, but that assumes more car usage, so ultimately a third motorway between London & Birmingham and a second between Birmingham, Manchester & Glasgow at a cost far in excess of HS2 and with huge environmental damage. Doing nothing is not an option!! We delayed too long building a second motorway (M40) from London to Birmingham which was obviously badly needed from the early 70s onwards - leading to incredible congestion, interminable roadworks and extra lanes on the M1. Therefore we must spend to improve the current transport infrastructure in this country. I repeat, doing nothing is not an option. So if we do not build HS2 or additional motorways, then what? What existing infrastructure do you have in mind to improve as an alternative, w_y? Platforms have already been extended to cope with 12-carriage trains on the WCML at considerable cost. It is not possible to extend them further without rebuilding bridges, embankments, viaducts, again at a cost considerably in excess of what HS2 would cost - and we still would have the capacity constraints caused by running a 21st century railway on essentially Victorian infrastructure. Add additional lines to the existing routes I hear folks cry. You have only to look at the huge impact such additional lines would have in the area most familiar to us Hornets, through Watford. Another 2 lines through the huge Oxhey cutting, over Bushey Arches, round the embankment to the Junction Station (where do we put the additional platforms necessary especially if they are to be 16 carriages long) and, then, a third Watford tunnel - which would entail properties being demolished on whichever side the extra lines were built. This would be repeated through every conurbation passed through by the line - Hemel, Berkhamsted, Leighton Buzzard, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Coventry etc. etc. etc. Immense cost (far outweighing the cost of HS2) and just a widened Victorian railway as a result..... I am intrigued as to what you mean by "links between the main networks". The Government has already committed to electrify large chunks of the network, including the Midland, Great Western and Transpennine lines, together with reopening and electrifying the Oxford to Bedford link closed in the 60s! The rolling stock is constantly being improved, albeit from a low base, with a new generation of fast, modern passenger stock ordered for the GW & East Coast Main Lines. I will agree with you on getting "parcel freight" back on to rail - but how is this to be done? Make the road haulage industry pay the real costs of their usage of the roads? The most compelling argument to build HS2 is, as I have already stated, one of easing capacity constraints - not one of cutting minutes off journey times. But it is not economically feasible to improve existing infrastructure to cope with traffic demands from the 2030s onwards and when building a new railway, it makes economic sense to build it as a high-speed line. Even I cannot see a benefit for commuters from Essex into London, but there most definitely will be a benefit to commuters using both West & East Coast Main Lines in that moving express trains on to HS2 will free up considerable capacity enabling more mid-distance & commuter services to be run - e.g. 4 lines instead of 2 for London Midland Services - so towns from Rugby to Watford and Peterborough to Hatfield would benefit from much enhanced and faster services. Why do you think that HS2 will be "massively over budget"? Please do not believe the nonsense peddled by the far-right wing "think tank" the Institute for Economic Affairs. This is an organisation who lobby for unfettered free market policies and are totally for more lorries, cars & pro road building. Great, more dual carriageways, motorways, town centre car parks etc. etc. Their figure of £80billion includes completely unrelated projects that are being built regardless of HS2, like the expansion of the Nottingham Tramway system. The additional costs that have been added to the project cover additional tunneling work to lessen environmental impact. Similar projects termed at their development stage as "White Elephants" like the Channel Tunnel, Thameslink, Crossrail and the various tramway systems in Manchester, Sheffield, Nottingham & Birmingham have and will prove their worth. I repeat from my initial post, why is it that virtually every developed country (and many developing countries) are investing in high-speed rail links and it is wrong for the UK to do so? Rant over!
I am sure that we can all quote examples w_y. The UK government forked out a £1m grant to a company called Premier Drum for a new factory. Queens award for industry. I know about it because I built it. After 12 months it closed with all the staff cashing in on the shares that they had been given just beforehand. The intention was good, but the manner in which it was administered wasn't. As soon as administrators become involved there is a fair chance that things will go wrong, but is this reason to stop trying? Driving around this country I constantly see work being carried out in towns, on autoroutes and read about the latest high speed rail lines being built. All these projects have boards up saying the cost and where the money is coming from. The largest amount is always the EU, something that the UK for some reason doesn't seem to apply for, but the people can see what belonging is doing for them and to a large extent they approve.
Vic I do not disagree that we must spend and invest in our transport infrastructure and especially the railways. But I do not believe that investing in such a expensive grand scheme as HS2 is the answer. It only adds capacity to the long distance inter City routes on the WCML and may eventually create capacity on the East Coast line when the HS2 extension to Leeds is completed in many years time. But what is needed right now is capacity on the overcrowded commuter routes around our large cities and towns. I live on the Bedpan line and the service is dire. Totally overcrowded throughout the day, with a hotchpotch of carriages that are limited to 8. It is in these areas where the capacity needs to be increased and the quality of service improved and better value can be obtained. My comment regarding cross rail links, is the same as the proposed re-opening on the Oxford - Bedford link. Improve these types of services - just try booking a train to go to our match at Boro in a couple of weeks time! It's not difficult to predict HS2 will be over budget and behind plan because all of these government projects always are and HS2 will be no different. An interesting comparison would be to compare HS2 to HS1 where the infrastructure has also allowed faster commuter services to run alongside the Eurostar services, this has made a huge improvement to the service to East Kent and is causing economic growth in those towns. My opinions are my own and I have no clue about propaganda or think tanks or pressure groups or read any newspaper that may also think that HS2 is not good value for money.
Good morning all from a clear, muggy Weston-super-Mare. Please continue your EU discussions lads, I am learning an awful lot that may or may not influence my long=held "anti" beliefs! Have a good day and continue to be nice to each other!
Morning all - my birthday today - so in the spirit of this forum I'm leaving Jam doughnuts from Simmonds on the bar once Ak had done the hot beverages!
I had a jam doughnut a few weeks ago and stuck it in the microwave to warm it up. Unfortunately I gave it too long and the jam burnt my top lip. It bloody hurt and I had a big blister come up.
Hæ það öll. Cappuccino, coffee, tea donuts and fruit are on the bar. Frothy cappuccinos for for al, HH, and W_Y Coffee and cramel frapachino for IB Coffees for COYH, Frenchie, Kev rob theo vic-rijrode and kiwiqpr Strong coffee for Sandy Milky coffee for Yorkie Espresso for SuffolkHorn Strong black coffees for Bragi Norway and zen Black coffee half hot half cold and no sugar for Charlie A peppermint latte for DanH Tea for BHD Cornish Mark jsybarry jerzeypie Lloydinio NZ and BCFCRed Tea with skimmed milk and no sugar for GG and Leon Hot chocolate with marshmallows for BBW Caramel latte for Hornette Scullion Canary Dave Fossefilberto and Maestro Una paloma for Mexican Hornet BB you are not on the beverage list, would you like to be added? -2C and we are told of snow today. At this time things are dry. ReykjavÃk has a depth of 15cm of snow this last night in some places.
Thanks for the caramel latte Ak, can you please keep the snow up your way? Honestly, we can manage without it!
Dave I find England strange in that you know, as a nation, will have a little snow and are never ready even for a few centimetres.
