To start with I'll define what I personally deem as central midfield; the midfield 2 of a defensive midfielder and central (or box-to-box) midfielder. But today I'm also going to throw in central attacking midfielders. So the players I'm going to discuss in here are: Defensive midfielders: Lucas and Henderson (and arguably Allen) Central midfielders: Gerrard and Allen (and arguably Henderson) Attacking midfielders: Coutinho and Alberto (going to ignore Moses from this as he won't be, nor should be, a long term solution) So to jump right in with my first discussion point... Gerrard and Lucas isn't working We know from watching the matches that these 2 aren't working well together. Steven Gerrard is 33 years old and looks a 33 year old by the 60 minute of most matches. Yes his technical ability is there for all to see and is still a joy to behold (still haven't got over that pass to Sturridge in the Sunderland game!) but his lack of natural stamina is holding him back. He's unable to get forward as much, and is unable to chase back as much, leaving him in no man's land. We also see a similar story for Lucas. The form he was in pre-injury Lucas could have worked into any team in the world, he was that good. But if you watch his games just before his injuries, particularly the immediate two against City and Chelsea, you see that a lot of his quality is down to his aggression. Aggression through playing on the front foot and anticipating whats going to happen; stepping out and intercepting when anticipating a pass, and also stepping forward and making a standing tackle when anticipating an opposition player movement. Winning the ball in these positions meant he (and the team) were on the front foot having won that possession and meant that Lucas could be positive in the transition. That aggression was down to a number of things; strength through trusting himself to win the ball (remember him dominating Yaya Toure to the point Toure gave up?!), fitness to consistently play proactively on the front foot, and confidence in both his ability and his body to win those balls on the stretch against men bigger than himself and then play those passes within a split second afterwards. Unfortunately for Lucas, we've only seen glimpses of those things since his return. I back him to eventually make it back to top form, but as it stands he's some way off. And given the dips of both those players; the team is suffering. Mignolet has had to make more saves than anyone else in the League, and we've conceded more shots at our goal than all but the promoted sides. We know that despite them not being perfect, the centre backs largely aren't the issue. In fact we've got 2 new aggressive CBs who love defending proactively and stopping things before they develop, and another CB with rediscovered form. Watch our matches this season again and you'll see the amount of times both Gerrard and Lucas are chasing the player as the opposition run at our centre backs. This shouldn't be the case at all. And it can't continue. Remember the best team we've played this season are Southampton, who massively exposed us. We still have the likes of City, Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal and Everton to play, both home and away. We have to put points on the board against these teams if we want to fight for top 4, and I fear for how they'd expose the Gerrard and Lucas combination Jordan Henderson A solution we've seen to this problem of lack of energy, bite and mobility is the continued inclusion of Henderson this season. Henderson has a phenomenal work rate and brings that energy, bite and mobility to the team. A lot of people (including myself) have been saying about yesterday's game "imagine if we had Johnson and Coutinho in there too", and its true. It would have been a cricket score. But thing thats missed is that Lucas was also missing. And had he been available, someone somewhere in the team would have had to have been sacrificed to include Henderson, to get Lucas and Gerrard through the game. But Jordan Henderson yesterday, single handedly offered a ray of light at the end of the tunnel for LFC's central midfield travails. Look at these following tweets from @Sean_Rogers: Ball recoveries: https://twitter.com/Sean_Rogers/status/386768199733481472/photo/1 Passing: https://twitter.com/Sean_Rogers/status/386768278590607360/photo/1 Attacking third passes: https://twitter.com/Sean_Rogers/status/386768407787749376/photo/1 Offering an option (received passes): https://twitter.com/Sean_Rogers/status/386768624016695296/photo/1 I've stated in another couple of posts, but he's surely played Lucas out of the team now. What we see from the above stats is a central midfielder central to ball recovery, retention of possession and getting attacks started. And all of it rolled into one man; not one man and another one drafted in to help him through the game. Lucas is the superior player in terms of technical ability as a defensive midfielder, and its probable that Henderson doesn't have his level of anticipation or even aggression; but what Henderson does bring to the team is better for the balance of the whole team, than Lucas as he currently is. Lucas shortly has to wait for his chance and then earn it when it comes. The way it should be. Steven Gerrard I think up until now, most are probably in agreement. Even massive Lucas fans such as myself. But here's the controversial one. As good as Henderson was yesterday, our central midfield would have been exposed against a better team yesterday. We must remember that it was a poor Crystal Palace side who chose to play with just 2 central midfielders, so we must keep all praise about the better balance and cohesion, and even praise for Henderson's performance, in check somewhat. I thought that Gerrard was very poor yesterday. And its why I'm happy to praise Henderson's performance against Palace, despite it being Palace, because I felt he was still doing more work than he should have to. A number of times Gerrard wandered forward ahead of Moses. Now considering Moses is a winger whose just doing a role as an attacking midfielder, I think this is ridiculous. Whether it was on instruction from Rodgers or something Gerrard took upon himself, he was often ahead of Moses in the first half. This would be sort of understandable if it was Coutinho playing, but quite outrageous as it was Moses. And it left us exposed. A number of times Palace got in behind our central midfield, and had a couple of good opportunities actually in that first half alone. While we all love seeing Gerrard in an attacking position, he clearly didn't have the energy to get back and cover the very area he should be; especially considering that we know Henderson is the mobile player who will get around. The midfield certainly looked better overall with Henderson instead of Lucas, but Gerrard's deficiencies (not technical ones I'll reiterate) were still there. And if they're still there, its only a matter of time until they're exposed. Solutions Now as mentioned before in my Henderson section, we don't want to just draft someone else in because then we're sacrificing another player from a team that picks itself. For sake of clarity, here is that team: Mignolet Johnson---Toure---Skrtel---Sakho---Enrique CM---CM Coutinho Suarez---Sturridge As with dropping Lucas for Henderson means we don't need to lose someone (probably Johnson or Coutinho) for Henderson to come in worth with Lucas; the same applies for Gerrard too. We simply can't have any passengers if we want our most potent attacking line ups on the pitch.
Cont... So here are 2 solutions I have: Solution #1 - Steven Gerrard as an attacking midfielder We know he still has the awesome technical ability. In fact his technical ability is better than anyone else at the club, bar Suarez. In an ideal world we don't to just drop him and lose that. So lets move him forward. One problem with this however is that it means Coutinho may have to miss out, and Alberto is pushed even further down the pecking order. But Coutinho is only 21 remember, so in most other top teams wouldn't be seen as one of their most important players. Perhaps it makes sense for Coutinho to be Gerrard's understudy for one more season, before taking over next season where a 34 year old Gerrard is his cover? In a 4-2-3-1, surely Coutinho, Gerrard and Suarez could be the 3 behind Sturridge anyway, forming the best attacking line up in the League, and a formation that the likes of Moses and Sterling could come into after 65-70 minutes as and when needed. Solution #2 - Dropping Steven Gerrard But for solution #1, its entirely possible that Gerrard may not be as good as Coutinho. Again not technical ability wise, but in terms of what he offers to the whole team. Coutinho is very fast and can turn and get forward at lightening speed, which allows Suarez and Sturridge to make their runs early and Coutinho to find them with those wonderful passes. We know that Gerrard has both the vision and passing ability, but he doesn't have that turn of pace to get back win the ball, and turn and go. He can win it, and Sturridge and Suarez would immediately be on the move. But he no longer has the pace and mobility to get the ball moving forwards as quickly as possible with his back to goal. So another solution is to drop him for someone else. Now this is the big point that will spark the most debate. I'm fully aware that all this is dependent on one thing. That someone is good enough to actually make it worthwhile dropping Steven Gerrard. Henderson - has been great all season, and has all the attributes the team needs, but is he a top class player? Lucas - if he was at pre-injury levels Gerrard would probably be fighting for a place behind him and Henderson, but he's not so isn't what we need for such as olution to work Allen - I think this guy isn't going to be one of our best players in the next 12-18 months, but given all his injury and confidence issues recently, we can't just throw him at the expense of Steven ****** Gerrard For what its worth, I actually think that in terms of balance across the whole team, currently a combination of Henderson plus one of Lucas or Allen is actually the best option. But morale-wise, I don't think any of the 3 are good enough to make the Anfield crowd accept Gerrard being dropped, and this atmosphere would certainly be felt by the team and it wouldn't be long until they believed it. So in order for it to work, we need one of two things: 1. Gerrard to pick up a little injury This means the team has no option to play without him. No animosity from media or fans as they clamour for Gerrard to be brought back in, or no relaxing thinking "Stevie's on the bench, he'll get us out of this", the team just plays their game without him. 2. Buy a top class CM so everyone can stomach having no Steven Gerrard Buy one so good that theres only one position left to fill alongside him. No debate as to which 2 or 3 should start; just a debate as to who should be the 2nd central midfielder to play alongside this guy. And with 4 other CMs, Gerrard will have to miss out from time to time. Lucas Leiva Thats pretty much all I wanted to say on central midfield, but thought I'd end quickly revisit the Lucas issue. Henderson taking this chance is a good thing. Lucas was struggling to get from game to game fitness-wise so this will give him the opportunity to rest up a bit after having worked hard since December to get himself match fit. Because he's effectively been in recovery since December 2012 and then worked all summer before an intense pre-season, the guy is probably just knackered. I wish he hadn't been picked for Brazil so he'd effectively had a 3 week holiday. I still back him to get back to his pre-injury levels, but when I say buy a top class central midfielder, we shouldn't be afraid to buy a DM either. He might not actually get back to those levels so we must plan for that outcome, and if he does get there, then surely its a good problem. And if we want to be a Champions League side again, there will be away games in Europe where we may well need 2 defensively minded central midfield players. Anyway, over to you guys... http://forums.liverpoolfc.com/threads/346883-Central-Midfield-Debate-2-0
I think everyone knows my views on the current midfield and I maintain that Lucas and Gerrard are not bad players, but they're simply not suited to this style/tactics.
With Gerrard being less mobile these days, he's surely at the stage of his career where he should take the old Beckham "Quarterback" role & sit in front of the back 4 playing Hollywood balls & just sitting there offering cover to the back line?
Don't think you'll get much traffic for this today, given the very low levels of response across the forum. Good piece though.
For me there is not a problem with Gerrard and Lucas they are a good combination and they will be key to any success this season. The formation we are using also suits them. The problem (if there is one) is Johnson being out. The formation we use has to have attacking full backs and we are making do on the right. If Johnson plays the opposition are pressed further back which gives us more control over the game. Gerrard is playing a role where he is to always be in space to link midfield and attack and not to track runners from midfield, we are already using a DM and 3 center backs aswell as the full backs tracking back if Gerrard is also in there we risk becoming pegged back and the opposition controlling the game in our half.
I've been saying since the Euros of 2012 that Gerrard if infinitely capable of playing the Pirlo role he does for Italy - and from me that's praise indeed, as I see pirlo as being the most cultured midfielder of the last 15 years. Seriously, Pirlo is twice as good as Alonso, which is ****ing good. Barry is playing a similarish role for everton now too. The days of box-to-box Gerrard are over, and we shouldn't wear out his last few productive seasons trying to get a weekly Istanbul out of him (though he'll doubtless drag himself to try twice a year against the ****e ). What was missing while with England (still is, perhaps) is a runner in the mould of Henderson or, as I suggested in the Euros, Jones. Lucas just doesn't cover enough ground in my book. Then we can play Coutinho behind a front 1 or 2 if we're playing three at the back. Same for England with Rooney in that role. Just my thoughts...
yeah, to some extent, but see what I say re Pirlo. Pirlo tends to roam a bit more than just sit in front of the back four.
So this is great first off.... now here are some bullet point thoughts for you. 1. what is central midfield? Is this in and around the center circle? Is is edge of one box to the other? 2. I am on record on several occasions stating i dimply do not believe that there is such a thing as a DM or a AM. Only players who are incapable of fulfilling the full role of a centre midfield player. defensive midfielder in my mind is a player of limited technical ability who runs about kicking lad and square passing.... ie garth barry or scott parker. The types that would not get anywhere near a top European side.... this makes real madrid owning a certain everton player all the more bizarre to my mind. Makelele is a prime example of a guy with low technical ability i guess. Why do i keep saying this... Roy, Kean, Patrick Vieira, Our own Alonso.. even dietmar Hamann shown far more ability to contribute positively hand merely "defending" are the box to box then? nah..... thats just something to say about some fit young lad who runs like a dog for you. All midfielders should be "box to box" in some form. 3. I totally agree with you about better team whacking us. However, we would not have played that system against a better side (IMO) we picked a team for the day. 4-4-2 to put width on the pitch and we just held our own in the middle. 4. I've commented on numerous occasions about gerrard either pooping out of the line to close down someone he ought not to be closing down or just not getting back or v swansea ball watching while shelvey ran past him. He has in short lost the tactical discipline he once had through long years playing as a 10 behind a front man and now he must find that role again.. you cannot lash up the field closing down and leave lucas to close down 2 runners while you stand and watch. 5. Getting ahead of play is another fine point I've commented on in the past. My firm belief is there is a time and place for everything. Gerrard's once powerful sprinting runs were awesome. by contrast frank lamprd joined late. different types of player. Who is more effective? Fat frank... why? Look at Utd's debut boys, first goal yesterday. set up the play wide then ghosted in. didn't need to get beyond anyone. Gerrard making a run or taking a risk is to be applauded, when the time is right. My opinion is though that if you are not playing 10 then you need to be inline or behind the ball as a midfielder but running ahead. This is because you are supposed to be the one making the defense splitting pass or moving it side to side, you should be the one seeing all the options in front of you... AND you should be the one goal side when it breaks down and above to get back without making a 40 yard sprint. 6. My opinion on our "new" formation is that it is a disaster, accomodating a cb is not the way forward. Just be ruthless and drop agger and skertl. Why? cos midfield is where most games are played, won and lost. We need 3 in the middle in the modern game and two full backs will simply do 5 at the back and we get just out manned in the middle. 7. Lucas. I think here is a fitness issue but it is being exaggerated by him having to chase left and right laterally covering all sorts of games. Anyone would be run ragged. 8. your solutions. I think we need to think about it, I also think we need to consider the position of the defensive line and get the whole team closer together on the pitch. Personally I am not as convinced by Henderson as i was. he is the technically weakest of our players on show, lucas included. Great energy but it puts "longer term" doubts in my mind. My preference here would be to try to work on 3 things. a. Mingolet has not shown us yet any great capacity for sweeping up behind. I wonder if this is a factor in the defensive line being deep. b. I want to see sahko and toure paired and an end to 3 at the back... its a disaster IMO. I want to see them push the line higher up as a result of this and point 1. c. I want to see us get gerrard into mindset of being the playmaker and being more vocal (he'll never do that mind) I want him to go tell peoepl where to play and where not to, who to close down and stop losing his own position doing it for them. If gerrard is to play another say oh 3 years. he's simply got to decide himself he should be running 10 yards not 30 and he's moving side to side and passing it fast, assurate and incisively. I think with a front 3 containing players like sturridge and suarez and moses who will dome deep but also think to get beyond the front man. I think lucas gerrard and coutinho in the middle might be something to look at. Is coutinho a no 10 or is he a midfielder? I don't know. all the evidence thus far suggests to me that we fade in games and are getting outplayed in midfield so it is very reasonable to question the area in order to improve us further.
how come you always jump to insults? I mean I usually just banter with you but i've also said my piece on how i think you do operate sometimes but just jumping straight to insults when I'm just stating opinion is a bit rich. Why don't you just now prove how you are always right then? I stated my piece as to why i think what i do so why don't you set me straight with your font of knowledge or dare i say it... was it me sating gareth barry is a guy who is limited that did for you?
Would this be the same Makelele who played for over a decade for Madrid, Chelsea & PSG, winning 2 CL's, 2 PL's, 2 La Liga titles & played in a WC Final - that Makelele??? Yeah mate he's mince that lad like.....
I was stating my opinion, that entire piece was complete bollocks imo & therefore devoid of a clue, aka clueless, sorry if your ego finds my critique hard to stomach.
I disagree with you MITO on your definition of DM/AM's etc. Vieira, Makelele, Hamman were ultimately defensive midfielders - their primary objective was to protect the back 4 and they succeeded. They were simply good footballers which meant they could pass, keep the ball and tackle. They evolved that position - Scott Parker is a DM but he's not the modern day DM.
That was a bit much Tobes, MITO has made a point and has his opinion if you don't agree that's fine but you've jumped in a bit with that comment no need for it. Make your critique more constructive, if MITO was looking for banter and a bit of an argument then fine but he simply isn't here.
Don't worry MITO - Tobes is just p*ssed because his joke of a club lost at the weekend, ultimately ending their only achievement in 10 years - being unbeaten in the league for 6 games.
It was light hearted & I even pre-fixed it with "with respect", it was also aimed at the one line that I picked out, not at him in general, so apologies to him if it's come across that way, as even though he's a total penis, I still quite like him......
YOu can't do the "with respect" lol. Over here in the south the saying is " Bless his heart" whenever you hear that, there is 100% going to be some **** coming your way! " Tobes, bless his little heart, is just a ****ing, whoring, **** of man"
Only our 6th defeat in our last 53 league games....some record for a 'joke club' petal. 6 easy fixtures & you think you're back in the big time.......
