This whole Torres v Vertonghen thing reminds me of the Chelsea persecution complex that they developed over the sending off of the same player v Man Utd last season. He was unlucky to be sent off for diving in that game, but should've already been dismissed for an appalling tackle earlier on. Which incident did they choose to focus on?
They pretty much say in the Standard that Maureen needs a course of Buscopan on that one this evening.
Two wrongs don't make a right though and the Torres clash with Cleverley is totally subjective. Fans can forgive referees making mistakes or not seeing things as was the case with Torres scratching Vertonghen (which nobody saw at the time) but what they cannot forgive is outright bias as was the case in both Torres red cards. Clattenburg and Dean both simply guessed.
Keep spouting this 'two wrongs don't make a right' line as much as you like DL, it's a catchy and well known phrase, it just happens to be wrong in this case, as it is much of the time. It's acceptable to violate rules to stop yourself from being disadvantaged when others have violated rules first, this is especially true in sport. "In specific circumstances violations of rules can be defensible if done as direct responses to other violations" Torres got what he deserved, Spurs got what they deserved (eventually) Chelsea got what they deserved. If the first instance had been called correctly the second instance would have been unable to occur, have a little grace about the situation please. And if you're going to condemn Vertonghen for over-acting, then Torres deserves twice the condemnation for his violent behaviour (caused by frustration at how well Vertonghen was playing against him).
I don't see why vertonghen is being blamed for his actions. Every week a player will go down/feign injury until they see a booking in the direction of the opposition. It's "playing the game" and players have been doing it for years. It's a ridiculous point to bring into a discussion as it happens so regularly. How about at the end of last season when David Luiz went to ground near the corner flag? Made himself look injured then got up laughing! Torres got what he deserved. A shame it wasn't a bit earlier on in the game.
Several pundits, journalists and referees have said in real time they thought the second booking was right, it was only with replays that you could see it was the wrong decision and that's what I thought at the time too. Very good point. I thought that was awful at the time and still do, just as I wasn't happy about Vertonghen either but it's probably some food for thought for the Chelsea fans calling for Vertonghen to banned and crying "cheat".
After being scratched in the face (which should've resulted in a red, two wrongs don't make a right but I do believe Karma came back to bite him) and wound up by Torres, I think Vertonghen saw it as an ideal moment to get "revenge". I'm not condoning what Vertonghen done but when Torres is already on a yellow and had pissed him off prior to the incident, it's pretty much human nature to get your own back.
Doesn't matter. If a commit a robbery, do I want to be sentenced for a murder I didn't commit? Torres should be punished for what he actually did which means a 3 game ban, Vertonghen also should have been punished with a 1 match ban. Although you could argue Vertonghen shouldn't have even been playing anyway after what should have been a clear red card against Villa.
But the difference is David Luiz was actually fouled and clear contact was made. Both players went for a 50/50 ball and when literally no contact was made, Torres got up straight away and Vertonghen feigned injury to get Torres booked as Townsend attempted to do with Lampard earlier in the first half. Not one person would deny Torres should have seen red at some point during the match but you want to be punished for the offences you commit not the ones you haven't. Torres now faces a 4 match ban when it could have been a 3 match or even 1 match ban had the referee actually officiated the game properly. A stronger referee would have nipped the Vertonghen/Torres thing in the bud before it was allowed to get worse.
I agree with your last paragraph completely, but I do feel Torres was reckless in the challenge on Vertonghen. He jumped at him from a long way away (and it was far from 50/50 iirc) risking injury. He clearly didn't catch Vetonghen in the face, so I would criticise Jan for that, but he did clatter into him off the ground dangerously with the intention to injure imo. Even without the face holding, it was a borderline yellow, and the ref was probably sick of Torres' behaviour by then. He looked very wound up?
I think most people would be happy to be charged with robbery if they'd actually committed murder... Not sure where you're coming from here DL...
If you watch in real time, Torres jumps in with a raised elbow, it didn't make contact, but you can say intent 'could' have been there from some angles...most importantly here, the refs! his perspective can't see the distance between Torres arm and JV's head. There is an un-natural swing of Torres arm at the end of the jump, its that imo from the refs angle thats done it. He wasn't favourite for the ball either, why does he turn his head away from any attempt to head the ball as he makes the challenge?, sorry, foul. All this and you think its JV'sreaction... https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/2269104787/hwudohstivrve7lsqzs4.jpeg [video=youtube;OpFGmmJhp3Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpFGmmJhp3Y[/video]
Pretending to be injured and pretending to have been fouled are separate offences under the laws and Luiz definitely did the first. There is a slight issue with the current laws in this whole debate: You can be fouled without contact having been made. If you jump over a dangerous tackle and then trip on landing - that isn't simulation but that is incredibly hard to judge and most pundits will call it a dive.
From one angle it looks like JV and Torres both hit their head on the ground when landing which also changes the argument
Torres is also clutching his head, why???, it made no contact with anything. DL doesn't see this with his glasses on... please log in to view this image
So if you're fouled you have a right to fake a serious injury and try to get a player sent off? So if it's no contact that is the disgrace, what about Drogba, who you say cleaned up his act? [video=youtube;cRTeqDGeQEY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRTeqDGeQEY[/video] [video=youtube;jDFJB6KFqWY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDFJB6KFqWY[/video] The ref wasn't helped by either side's players on Saturday, there were players going down under little or no contact from the very start. It used to be in derbies and big matches that you'd see lots of strong tackling bordering on dangerous but these days it seems to be more about exaggerating contact and even diving. What should Dean have done to nip it in the bud with Torres and Vertonghen, out of interest?
